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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #75 - Dec 28^th, 2022 at 10:32am

Frank wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 1:26pm:

Well, the Jews were there before the Muslim Arabs.

True.

Quote:

Anyway, the Jews accepted the UN partition, the Arabs didn't.

Naturally.....and continuing war has been the result.

Meanwhile the Palestinians aren't going anywhere.

Quote:

But 70 years on, the Sunni Arabs are slowly realising that
1 Israel is not going anywhere
2 the Shia Persians are a much bigger menace to them than Israel ever was or ever would be
3 Israel is the technological powerhouse of the ME and it's far more beneficial to everyone to work with Israel than against it.

Good points. Islam is still fatally divided, 1400 years after
the initial dispute over leadership succession. Madness.

A 'house divided' falls...and Palestinians mourn.....

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 12505 Gender:	Re: Zionism Reply #76 - Dec 28^th, 2022 at 10:38am thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 10:32am: Islam is still fatally divided, 1400 years after the initial dispute over leadership succession. Madness. A 'house divided' falls...and Palestinians mourn..... All religions are divided. Sectarianism within established religions is never fatal.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #77 - Dec 28^th, 2022 at 10:45am

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 7:22am:

issuevoter wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 10:03pm:

Isn't religion a boon to mankind?

What's religion got to do with it?

We're discussing different ethnic groups.

...and religion, class, and geopolitics (as noted by tickleandrose), as Jews began to settle in British Mandate Palestine in increasing numbers between 1917 -1947.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #78 - Dec 28^th, 2022 at 10:53am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 10:38am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 10:32am:

Islam is still fatally divided, 1400 years after
the initial dispute over leadership succession. Madness.

A 'house divided' falls...and Palestinians mourn.....

All religions are divided. Sectarianism within established religions is never fatal.

The Christian world has had its "Enlightenment"; sectarianism/division is no longer the controlling factor in political arrangements.

Not so in the Islamic world.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Zionism
Reply #79 - Dec 28^th, 2022 at 11:01am

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 10:53am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 10:38am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 10:32am:

Islam is still fatally divided, 1400 years after
the initial dispute over leadership succession. Madness.

A 'house divided' falls...and Palestinians mourn.....

All religions are divided. Sectarianism within established religions is never fatal.

The Christian world has had its "Enlightenment"; sectarianism/division is no longer the controlling factor in political arrangements.

Not so in the Islamic world.

What is the Islamic world? Do you mean the middle east and/or restricted to the sunni/shia divide? There are many other sects of Islam across the world.

When Pakistan decided it would be an Islamic state, Pakistanis soon realised it was impossible to detremine who was an 'orthodox' muslim and who was not.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #80 - Dec 28^th, 2022 at 11:09am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 10:21am:

tickleandrose wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 3:19pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 2:40pm:

[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1671444180/63#63 date=1672103671]Yes, well if you proclaim a state on someone else's land, as Zionists did in 1947

Whose land?

I believe it was Arab land, more specifically the Ottoman Empire. After WW1, and allied victory, it was the British intention then to establish a homeland for Jews, much to the resistance of the local Arabs. Of course, if you look at the history of Europe. Back in those days, nobody - ranging from England, to US, Germany to France, no one likes the Jews. So this... help was as much as trying to getting rid of them. Of course, they couldnt even care less about the Arabs.

Quote:

Not to mention that Palestine in the 20s was a desert wasteland of no interest to Arabs.

Wrong.

"In order to enlist the military and political support of the Arabs, Britain promises to support their struggle for independence in most of the lands hitherto ruled by the Ottoman Turks, presumably including Palestine (see the correspondence between Sharif Husayn and MacMahon).
At the same time, Britain agrees with France and Russia to carve up the Middle East into mutually agreed spheres of economic and political influence. The map drawn up in the Sykes-Picot agreement contradicts the promises made in the MacMahon correspondence.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Zionism
Reply #81 - Dec 28^th, 2022 at 11:16am

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 11:09am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 10:21am:

tickleandrose wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 3:19pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 2:40pm:

[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1671444180/63#63 date=1672103671]Yes, well if you proclaim a state on someone else's land, as Zionists did in 1947

Whose land?

I believe it was Arab land, more specifically the Ottoman Empire. After WW1, and allied victory, it was the British intention then to establish a homeland for Jews, much to the resistance of the local Arabs. Of course, if you look at the history of Europe. Back in those days, nobody - ranging from England, to US, Germany to France, no one likes the Jews. So this... help was as much as trying to getting rid of them. Of course, they couldnt even care less about the Arabs.

Quote:

Not to mention that Palestine in the 20s was a desert wasteland of no interest to Arabs.

Wrong.

"In order to enlist the military and political support of the Arabs, Britain promises to support their struggle for independence in most of the lands hitherto ruled by the Ottoman Turks, presumably including Palestine (see the correspondence between Sharif Husayn and MacMahon).
At the same time, Britain agrees with France and Russia to carve up the Middle East into mutually agreed spheres of economic and political influence. The map drawn up in the Sykes-Picot agreement contradicts the promises made in the MacMahon correspondence.

Palestine was unused land at the time - read more than Wikipedia summaries.

The Ottomans had little interest in it and neither did the Arabs.

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« Last Edit: Dec 28^th, 2022 at 11:28am by MeisterEckhart »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #82 - Dec 28^th, 2022 at 11:20am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 11:01am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 10:53am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 10:38am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 10:32am:

Islam is still fatally divided, 1400 years after
the initial dispute over leadership succession. Madness.

A 'house divided' falls...and Palestinians mourn.....

All religions are divided. Sectarianism within established religions is never fatal.

The Christian world has had its "Enlightenment"; sectarianism/division is no longer the controlling factor in political arrangements.

Not so in the Islamic world.

What is the Islamic world? Do you mean the middle east and/or restricted to the sunni/shia divide? There are many other sects of Islam across the world.

In this Zionism thread, I mean the ME.

Quote:

When Pakistan decided it would be an Islamic state, Pakistanis soon realised it was impossible to detremine who was an 'orthodox' muslim and who was not.

Both shia and sunni are "orthodox"...depending on whether you are sunni or shia....

contrasting with the 'house divided' eg Saudi Arabia and Iran, 2 major Islamic powers in the ME, facing "Zionist" Israel.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #83 - Dec 28^th, 2022 at 11:23am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 11:16am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 11:09am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 10:21am:

tickleandrose wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 3:19pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 2:40pm:

[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1671444180/63#63 date=1672103671]Yes, well if you proclaim a state on someone else's land, as Zionists did in 1947

Whose land?

I believe it was Arab land, more specifically the Ottoman Empire. After WW1, and allied victory, it was the British intention then to establish a homeland for Jews, much to the resistance of the local Arabs. Of course, if you look at the history of Europe. Back in those days, nobody - ranging from England, to US, Germany to France, no one likes the Jews. So this... help was as much as trying to getting rid of them. Of course, they couldnt even care less about the Arabs.

Quote:

Not to mention that Palestine in the 20s was a desert wasteland of no interest to Arabs.

Wrong.

"In order to enlist the military and political support of the Arabs, Britain promises to support their struggle for independence in most of the lands hitherto ruled by the Ottoman Turks, presumably including Palestine (see the correspondence between Sharif Husayn and MacMahon).
At the same time, Britain agrees with France and Russia to carve up the Middle East into mutually agreed spheres of economic and political influence. The map drawn up in the Sykes-Picot agreement contradicts the promises made in the MacMahon correspondence.

Palestine was unused land at the time - read more than Wikipedia summaries.

The Ottomans had little interest in it and neither did the Arabs.

Er...quick wiki

"The Al-Aqsa Mosque compound (Masjid Al-Aqsa) in Jerusalem is the third holiest site in Islam. The compound is held in esteem by the entire Muslim community, due to its history as a place of worship by many Islamic prophets such as Ibrahim, Dawud, Sulaimaan, Ilyas and Isa.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Zionism
Reply #84 - Dec 28^th, 2022 at 11:32am

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 11:23am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 11:16am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 11:09am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 10:21am:

tickleandrose wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 3:19pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 2:40pm:

[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1671444180/63#63 date=1672103671]Yes, well if you proclaim a state on someone else's land, as Zionists did in 1947

Whose land?

I believe it was Arab land, more specifically the Ottoman Empire. After WW1, and allied victory, it was the British intention then to establish a homeland for Jews, much to the resistance of the local Arabs. Of course, if you look at the history of Europe. Back in those days, nobody - ranging from England, to US, Germany to France, no one likes the Jews. So this... help was as much as trying to getting rid of them. Of course, they couldnt even care less about the Arabs.

Quote:

Not to mention that Palestine in the 20s was a desert wasteland of no interest to Arabs.

Wrong.

"In order to enlist the military and political support of the Arabs, Britain promises to support their struggle for independence in most of the lands hitherto ruled by the Ottoman Turks, presumably including Palestine (see the correspondence between Sharif Husayn and MacMahon).
At the same time, Britain agrees with France and Russia to carve up the Middle East into mutually agreed spheres of economic and political influence. The map drawn up in the Sykes-Picot agreement contradicts the promises made in the MacMahon correspondence.

Palestine was unused land at the time - read more than Wikipedia summaries.

The Ottomans had little interest in it and neither did the Arabs.

Er...quick wiki

"The Al-Aqsa Mosque compound (Masjid Al-Aqsa) in Jerusalem is the third holiest site in Islam. The compound is held in esteem by the entire Muslim community, due to its history as a place of worship by many Islamic prophets such as Ibrahim, Dawud, Sulaimaan, Ilyas and Isa.

You're not much of a researcher, are you.

Palestine was a geographical expression until the early 20th century and Jerusalem is the exception, not the rule about the Arab concern for Palestine; hence the fierce resentment when Israelis finally touched the western wall of the temple after the 6-days war.

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 12505 Gender:	Re: Zionism Reply #85 - Dec 28^th, 2022 at 1:29pm thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 11:20am: Both shia and sunni are "orthodox"...depending on whether you are sunni or shia.... That is the same with all sectarianism and schisms within religions.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #86 - Dec 28^th, 2022 at 3:19pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 11:32am:

You're not much of a researcher, are you.

Palestine was a geographical expression until the early 20th century and Jerusalem is the exception, not the rule about the Arab concern for Palestine;

You said "Arabs weren't concerned about Palestine" in 1920, but Jerusalem was a major centre in Palestine - of significance to Muslims - which was strongly contested by the local population after WW1, aided and abetted by the mufti of Jerusalem.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Jerusalem/Modern-Jerusalem

"In December 1917 British troops under Edmund Allenby entered Jerusalem after the retreat of Ottoman forces. This opened a new era that lasted until 1948, during which Jerusalem again became a capital, this time of a territory administered by the British under a mandate from the League of Nations. Arab opposition to Zionist immigration intensified in the interwar period".
"

Quote:

hence the fierce resentment when Israelis finally touched the western wall of the temple after the 6-days war.

"fierce resentment", which existed much earlier than 1967.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Zionism
Reply #87 - Dec 28^th, 2022 at 3:47pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 3:19pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 11:32am:

You're not much of a researcher, are you.

Palestine was a geographical expression until the early 20th century and Jerusalem is the exception, not the rule about the Arab concern for Palestine;

You said "Arabs weren't concerned about Palestine" in 1920, but Jerusalem was a major centre in Palestine - of significance to Muslims - which was strongly contested by the local population after WW1, aided and abetted by the mufti of Jerusalem.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Jerusalem/Modern-Jerusalem

"In December 1917 British troops under Edmund Allenby entered Jerusalem after the retreat of Ottoman forces. This opened a new era that lasted until 1948, during which Jerusalem again became a capital, this time of a territory administered by the British under a mandate from the League of Nations. Arab opposition to Zionist immigration intensified in the interwar period".
"

Quote:

hence the fierce resentment when Israelis finally touched the western wall of the temple after the 6-days war.

"fierce resentment", which existed much earlier than 1967.

You're not getting it, are you.

Jerusalem has been contested by Christians and Muslims almost since the birth of Islam. Palestine was the ex-Roman applied name to the lands around Jerusalem, but was not defined, and was of little to no value to Arabs and later Arab Muslims.

19th-century travellers to the Holy Land all wrote of the desolation of the lands around Jerusalem - the Holy land - unkempt, run-down and mostly uninhabited.

Arab resistance to the Jewish state of Israel began in 1948 but climaxed in 1967 when Israelis made the physical link to the remains of the ancient Jewish 2nd temple - the moment all Jews date as their people's return to their promised land - notwithstanding that European Jews have no direct DNA link to Sephardic Jews who have always lived in the region.

On reconciliation, nearly every Arab state is planning to establish normal diplomatic relations with the state of Israel - the latest: the UAE. Saudi Arabia is in talks with Israel to normalise diplomatic relations.

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tickleandrose

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Re: Zionism
Reply #88 - Dec 28^th, 2022 at 5:21pm

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2022 at 8:37am:

tickleandrose wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 3:46pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 3:20pm:

tickleandrose wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 3:19pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 2:40pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 11:14am:

Yes, well if you proclaim a state on someone else's land, as Zionists did in 1947

Whose land?

I believe it was Arab land, more specifically the Ottoman Empire. After WW1, and allied victory, it was the British intention then to establish a homeland for Jews, much to the resistance of the local Arabs. Of course, if you look at the history of Europe. Back in those days, nobody - ranging from England, to US, Germany to France, no one likes the Jews. So this... help was as much as trying to getting rid of them. Of course, they couldnt even care less about the Arabs.

So it's a racist thing?

I think... if you taking into account the era in early 1900s. Its really a mixture of race, religion and class. And of course geopolitics.

It's about religion. The Muslims cannot tolerate a "Jewish" state on "Muslim" land, even if Muslims there have more rights and freedoms than in any of the other middle eastern countries.

One of our resident Muslims even once explained that Spain belonged to Islam also, so it was inevitable that Muslims would have their glorious military victory over Spain.

Yes, and the British was keenly aware of this. So, they choose to 'relocate' Jews, and help them create a homeland near Jerusalem. This would ensure that the Ottoman Empire will never rise again to threaten the British Empire. After all, how are you going to unite when you are busy fighting each other right? And this is just ONE of the many cases around the world.

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tickleandrose

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Re: Zionism
Reply #89 - Dec 28^th, 2022 at 5:26pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 8:28pm:

tickleandrose wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 3:19pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 2:40pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 27^th, 2022 at 11:14am:

Yes, well if you proclaim a state on someone else's land, as Zionists did in 1947

Whose land?

I believe it was Arab land, more specifically the Ottoman Empire.

What about before that?

Also Arabs are not Ottoman. Completely different ethnic groups.

If you look at the Ottoman Empire map. It encompasses majority of the Arab world known today. Remember the discovery of oil fields were after break up of Ottoman Empire. So pre 1900s, most of the gulf states now are smaller and less developed. During the Ottoman Empire era, those areas were controlled by Turkish administration, but it does not mean that it was not occupied by Arabs.

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