Australian Politics Forum - The delusions of Western classical liberalism

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 13043
Gender: male

Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #105 - Jan 15^th, 2023 at 2:49pm

Frank wrote on Jan 15^th, 2023 at 11:16am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 15^th, 2023 at 10:35am:

Frank wrote on Jan 14^th, 2023 at 3:51pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 14^th, 2023 at 10:31am:

Frank wrote on Jan 14^th, 2023 at 10:18am:

Gibberish.

I was wondering how the debate would end.....

So you think "democratic values" will save the world..

...and you deny you are capable of evil.

The demand for national sovereignty is merely another example of the aggregation of the natural egoistic preference for individual rights above unity of the collective.

SOOOOOO..... Unity, selflessness, altruism - are these natural human traits? Not a hard question.

Ah...I'll give you the benefit of a doubt...

"natural human traits' are not the same as 'natural human rights'; as we have seen, the latter are difficult to define, and the former range from evil to good.

Quote:

You introduced these qualities as being superior to 'evil freedom' propagated by evil neocons'.

You were the first to introduce 'traits', which was an obfuscation re the concept of "rights".

Indeed, the traits of "Unity, selflessness, altruism", those traits on the 'good' spectrum' of human traits, are superior toWestern "freedom values" lauding the freedom of the individual, despite possessing evil and good traits (eg greed/competition versus generosity/co-operation).

SOOOOOO..... Unity, selflessness, altruism - are these natural/intrinsic/inherent human traits/right/values or are they, like your idea of freedom, only legally created and defined?
Not a hard question

Are you dense? I've already explained it:

1. traits are not rights.

2. Human traits are not created, they are inherent in human nature and they reveal a spectrum ranging from good to evil; whereas human "rights" are created and need to be defined beyond the obvious "right" to liberty which is based on the fact all are born free.

Back to top

IP Logged

thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 13043 Gender:	Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism Reply #106 - Jan 15^th, 2023 at 2:49pm >
Back to top	IP Logged

Frank

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 47173
Gender: male

Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #107 - Jan 15^th, 2023 at 7:36pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 15^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 15^th, 2023 at 11:16am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 15^th, 2023 at 10:35am:

Frank wrote on Jan 14^th, 2023 at 3:51pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 14^th, 2023 at 10:31am:

Frank wrote on Jan 14^th, 2023 at 10:18am:

Gibberish.

I was wondering how the debate would end.....

So you think "democratic values" will save the world..

...and you deny you are capable of evil.

The demand for national sovereignty is merely another example of the aggregation of the natural egoistic preference for individual rights above unity of the collective.

SOOOOOO..... Unity, selflessness, altruism - are these natural human traits? Not a hard question.

Ah...I'll give you the benefit of a doubt...

"natural human traits' are not the same as 'natural human rights'; as we have seen, the latter are difficult to define, and the former range from evil to good.

Quote:

You introduced these qualities as being superior to 'evil freedom' propagated by evil neocons'.

You were the first to introduce 'traits', which was an obfuscation re the concept of "rights".

Indeed, the traits of "Unity, selflessness, altruism", those traits on the 'good' spectrum' of human traits, are superior toWestern "freedom values" lauding the freedom of the individual, despite possessing evil and good traits (eg greed/competition versus generosity/co-operation).

SOOOOOO..... Unity, selflessness, altruism - are these natural/intrinsic/inherent human traits/right/values or are they, like your idea of freedom, only legally created and defined?
Not a hard question

Are you dense? I've already explained it:

1. traits are not rights.

2. Human traits are not created, they are inherent in human nature and they reveal a spectrum ranging from good to evil; whereas human "rights" are created and need to be defined beyond the obvious "right" to liberty which is based on the fact all are born free.

Who says you are born free? Are you born selfless, altruistic? Are you born with any human, natural rights? Are you born with an inherent ability to tell right from wrong?

If not, how was it all made up? When? By whom?
You question natural human rights - on what basis do you question them? Where does your right to question them comes from? Did you invent them or do you share it with other humans?

Back to top

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 13043
Gender: male

Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #108 - Jan 21^st, 2023 at 8:50am

To recap: the idea of sovereignty evolved over time from its grounding in religion ("Christ the king"), to monarchs ("Divine Right of kings"), and then to the individual with "inherent/natural rights", postulated by the enlightenment 18th century theorists.

But individuals don't agree on what these rights are, so the problem of finding a theoretical/philosophical basis for practical governance remains; governance (and sovereignty) by definition applies to all.

So the only sensible grounding for sovereignty is law itself, as Cicero recognized:

"all must submit to law, if all are to be free".

So the quality of the law is paramount: what does the law wish to achieve?

Maximum individual freedom, or maximum general welfare?

Turns out the former is taking us down the road to economic, ecological catastrophe and possible nuclear annihilation.

Back to top

IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 13043
Gender: male

Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #109 - Jan 21^st, 2023 at 9:06am

Frank wrote on Jan 15^th, 2023 at 7:36pm:

Who says you are born free?

All (not just some) are born free in nature, so the idea of "inherent/natural" rights must proceed from that basic truth.

Quote:

Are you born selfless, altruistic? Are you born with any human, natural rights? Are you born with an inherent ability to tell right from wrong?

No.

Quote:

If not, how was it all made up? When? By whom?

Just answered in my previous postm #108.

Quote:

You question natural human rights - on what basis do you question them?

On the basis that these supposed 'natural' rights differ among the individuals who attempt to define them.

Quote:

Where does your right to question them comes from?

from my conscience and capacity for reason

Quote:

Did you invent them or do you share it with other humans?

Well natural rights don't exist, even if people attempt to invent them; so the only thing we all "share" is the sovereignty of the law....law which has to be created by men.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jan 21^st, 2023 at 11:29am by thegreatdivide »

IP Logged

thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 13043 Gender:	Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism Reply #110 - Jan 21^st, 2023 at 9:08am >
Back to top	IP Logged

Ayn Marx Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2937 South of Australia Gender:	Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism Reply #111 - Jan 21^st, 2023 at 9:38am So much pseudo philosophic gibberish in this tread one doesn't know where to start. Maybe start asking ourselves about the kind of thoughts and actions that lead to the preservation of life and which don't ?
Back to top	The Human Race is Insane IP Logged

thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 13043 Gender:	Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism Reply #112 - Jan 21^st, 2023 at 12:01pm >
Back to top	IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 13043
Gender: male

Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #113 - Jan 21^st, 2023 at 12:03pm

Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 21^st, 2023 at 9:38am:

So much pseudo philosophic gibberish in this tread one doesn't know where to start.
Maybe start asking ourselves about the kind of thoughts and actions that lead to the preservation of life and which don't ?

Exactly.

And how those thoughts and actions can be codified in law.

Back to top

IP Logged

thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 13043 Gender:	Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism Reply #114 - Jan 21^st, 2023 at 12:05pm >
Back to top	IP Logged

thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 13043 Gender:	Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism Reply #115 - Jan 13^th, 2024 at 12:11pm Much will be said about "democracy" this weekend, but little about the cost-of living crisis, or access to housing and jobs for all......
Back to top	IP Logged

thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 13043 Gender:	Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism Reply #116 - Jan 13^th, 2024 at 12:12pm .
Back to top	IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49233
At my desk.

Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #117 - Jan 13^th, 2024 at 2:58pm

Quote:

But the classical liberal formulation "all are created equal before the law" defines the law in terms of itself, namely, "all are created equal" - which is obvious nonsense; some are literally imbeciles, some are geniuses - implying remarkably different outcomes 'before the law'.

This is fundamental misunderstanding of what "before the law" means. It does not define of the law.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Grappler Deep State Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 84981 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism Reply #118 - Jan 14^th, 2024 at 1:38am thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 13^th, 2024 at 12:11pm: Much will be said about "democracy" this weekend, but little about the cost-of living crisis, or access to housing and jobs for all...... Relate those to our form of governance .... take your time..... explain precisely how it works....
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged

aquascoot

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 34907
Gender: male

Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #119 - Jan 14^th, 2024 at 7:00am

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 21^st, 2023 at 8:50am:

To recap: the idea of sovereignty evolved over time from its grounding in religion ("Christ the king"), to monarchs ("Divine Right of kings"), and then to the individual with "inherent/natural rights", postulated by the enlightenment 18th century theorists.

But individuals don't agree on what these rights are, so the problem of finding a theoretical/philosophical basis for practical governance remains; governance (and sovereignty) by definition applies to all.

So the only sensible grounding for sovereignty is law itself, as Cicero recognized:

"all must submit to law, if all are to be free".

So the quality of the law is paramount: what does the law wish to achieve?

Maximum individual freedom, or maximum general welfare?

Turns out the former is taking us down the road to economic, ecological catastrophe and possible nuclear annihilation.

this is, of course, the exact arguement of the WEF

that shareholder capitalism is at its end and a new broom of regulatory elites need to take over the reins.

but who supervises clauss shwabb, mark zuckerburg, justin trudeau, angela merkel, bill gates, geotge clooney and greta thunburg?

are they not just authoritarians dressed up as the latest iteration to "take care of us"

thats the selling point and many people (especially of the left) view all politicians and authority figures through the frame of

"who can look after me best"

the covid lockdowns showed us that maybe 90 % of people think that way.

"frightened children who just want to be led"

stakeholder capitalism as clauss called it 40 yrs ago.

who decides which stakeholders get what ?

Back to top

IP Logged