Australian Politics Forum - The delusions of Western classical liberalism

Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: The delusions of NotsoGreat Reply #30 - Jan 9^th, 2023 at 8:47am thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 12:05am: I would ask: what are these "inalienable rights" possessed by all humans, how and why do they exist, other than simply saying they are 'self-evident' or 'God-given'. If only you stopped toggling btwn your fake shared ids and googled the term instead 😐
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #31 - Jan 9^th, 2023 at 9:22am

Bias_2012 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 2:12am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 12:29am:

So - like graps, you need to define "rights"; presumably you have in mind "rights" which don't require governments to establish, but exist through "reason and conscience"?

One that needs reviewing is the compulsory acquisition of private property without offering market value in compensation plus expenses for having to set up home in another location

That didn't answer the question.

You claim "laws aren't rights". I'm seeking clarification from you on that important point.

It seems to me the conclusion is that government and law is injurious to "rights".

As to your point about unjust compulsory property acquisition by the government - yes, a review is certainly in order.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The delusions of NotsoGreat
Reply #32 - Jan 9^th, 2023 at 9:26am

Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 8:47am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 12:05am:

I would ask: what are these "inalienable rights" possessed by all humans, how and why do they exist, other than simply saying they are 'self-evident' or 'God-given'.

If only you stopped toggling btwn your fake shared ids and googled the term instead 😐

Oh dear Lisa, you could try using your own brain to define what "inalienable rights" are, and explain how and why they exist. The 1st 2 pages in the thread give you plenty to go on.

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Frank

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #33 - Jan 9^th, 2023 at 9:28am

mothra wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 8:40am:

Frank wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 8:31am:

mothra wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 7:43am:

Frank wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 6:49am:

AusGeoff wrote on Jan 8^th, 2023 at 8:42pm:

Can someone list my inalienable rights (that I currently enjoy) that
would be (or are) denied me by any past, future, or present Australian
federal governments?

I'm nor aware of any.

Life, thought, speech, property.

Life ... universal health care ... let's hope the ALP manage to restore Medicare.

Thought ... free eduaction for all. Dropped the ball on that one, didn't we.

Speech ... well, with all you get away with on here, i've no idea why your complaining. You get to say what you want you blithering snowflake. You just don't like that people tell you that you're an arsehole for it. Or that you're comments are unpopular. You refuse to take either hint so we're all just waiting patiently for you to die.

Property ... guaranteed housing for all? An end to homelessness? Sign me up!

Strike me pink old boy. Aside from the whinging, i think you're a socialist!

Totally unsurprisingly, Mrs Bbwian, you are hopelessly confused about natural and civil rights. But then you are both socialists so confusion and misunderstanding ARE your angle on everything.
Carry on, scatter them knickers.

Btw, I wasnt "winging", frightbat, I was responding to the Sage of Gippsland.
Have you done all the sweeping, washing up, ironing already?

Would you care to point out to me where i was wrong in your interpretation?

Surely you didn't just mean all of those rights for "some", did you?

Natural rights are based on our 'nature', being human. They are not dependent on social organisation.

Civil rights are about rights in a particular society, 'city' (civitas - citizenship, civil society). They vary from society to society, age to age. They are negotiated, if you like, by each society and so they unfold and change.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: The delusions of NotsoGreat
Reply #34 - Jan 9^th, 2023 at 9:37am

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 9:26am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 8:47am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 12:05am:

I would ask: what are these "inalienable rights" possessed by all humans, how and why do they exist, other than simply saying they are 'self-evident' or 'God-given'.

If only you stopped toggling btwn your fake shared ids and googled the term instead 😐

Oh dear Lisa, you could try using your own brain to define what "inalienable rights" are, and explain how and why they exist. The 1st 2 pages in the thread give you plenty to go on.

I ignore BS. Especially YOUR BS!

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Lisa Jones

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Re: The delusions of NotsoGreat et al
Reply #35 - Jan 9^th, 2023 at 9:42am

Frank wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 9:28am:

mothra wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 8:40am:

Frank wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 8:31am:

mothra wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 7:43am:

Frank wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 6:49am:

AusGeoff wrote on Jan 8^th, 2023 at 8:42pm:

Can someone list my inalienable rights (that I currently enjoy) that
would be (or are) denied me by any past, future, or present Australian
federal governments?

I'm nor aware of any.

Life, thought, speech, property.

Life ... universal health care ... let's hope the ALP manage to restore Medicare.

Thought ... free eduaction for all. Dropped the ball on that one, didn't we.

Speech ... well, with all you get away with on here, i've no idea why your complaining. You get to say what you want you blithering snowflake. You just don't like that people tell you that you're an arsehole for it. Or that you're comments are unpopular. You refuse to take either hint so we're all just waiting patiently for you to die.

Property ... guaranteed housing for all? An end to homelessness? Sign me up!

Strike me pink old boy. Aside from the whinging, i think you're a socialist!

Totally unsurprisingly, Mrs Bbwian, you are hopelessly confused about natural and civil rights. But then you are both socialists so confusion and misunderstanding ARE your angle on everything.
Carry on, scatter them knickers.

Btw, I wasnt "winging", frightbat, I was responding to the Sage of Gippsland.
Have you done all the sweeping, washing up, ironing already?

Would you care to point out to me where i was wrong in your interpretation?

Surely you didn't just mean all of those rights for "some", did you?

Natural rights are based on our 'nature', being human. They are not dependent on social organisation.

Civil rights are about rights in a particular society, 'city' (civitas - citizenship, civil society). They vary from society to society, age to age. They are negotiated, if you like, by each society and so they unfold and change.

👆Frank teaching someone who alleges she/he/it has 3 University degrees (whilst living on the streets mind you) the basics of Yr 12 Legal Studies.

😂🤣😆

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #36 - Jan 9^th, 2023 at 9:53am

Frank wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 9:28am:

Natural rights are based on our 'nature', being human. They are not dependent on social organisation.

Ah ..another voice for the proposition 'laws aren't "rights"', ie, laws legislated by government on behalf of efficacious social organization are not "inalienable rights".

You say inalienable rights are based on human nature, but you abandoned the debate re human nature a couple of days back...

You failed to understand different individuals see their own interests differently (courtesy the triune brain ...), resulting in the reality that competitive, egotistic self-interest will trump co-operation re "inalienable rights", in the absence of law.

Quote:

Civil rights are about rights in a particular society, 'city' (civitas - citizenship, civil society). They vary from society to society, age to age. They are negotiated, if you like, by each society and so they unfold and change.

Nicely put.

But of your listed "inalienable rights" to life, thought, speech, and property, the last is immediately problematic because not all possess property, despite the fact affordable housing is an essential human requirement.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The delusions of NotsoGreat
Reply #37 - Jan 9^th, 2023 at 9:56am

Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 9:37am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 9:26am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 8:47am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 12:05am:

I would ask: what are these "inalienable rights" possessed by all humans, how and why do they exist, other than simply saying they are 'self-evident' or 'God-given'.

If only you stopped toggling btwn your fake shared ids and googled the term instead 😐

Oh dear Lisa, you could try using your own brain to define what "inalienable rights" are, and explain how and why they exist. The 1st 2 pages in the thread give you plenty to go on.

I ignore BS. Especially YOUR BS!

Er, dear Lisa, that's not debate, show us you are capable of engaging your brain . Have a go at critiquing the Articles 1 and 2 of the UN Charter, shown in red in #1 of this thread (after the OP).

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 13051 Gender:	Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism Reply #38 - Jan 9^th, 2023 at 10:05am The defeated Right is rampaging in Brazil, destroying government property. Are they worried the new Leftist govt. will increase taxes, and govt. debt, in order to reduce poverty and inequality in Brazil? Are they worried their perceived "rights" will be compromised by the Left?
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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 47220 Gender:	Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism Reply #39 - Jan 9^th, 2023 at 10:13am You can negotiate civil rights only with beings whom you mutually recognise as having the same natural rights as you - human beings with natural rights equal to yours. You cannot negotiate civil rights and laws that regulate them with apes, bees or ants, no matter how organised their 'societies' are.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #40 - Jan 9^th, 2023 at 10:25am

Frank wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 10:13am:

You can negotiate civil rights only with beings whom you mutually recognise as having the same natural rights as you - human beings with natural rights equal to yours.

Ah...you mean the 'natural right' to an elected adversarial democracy, in which the negotiated civil rights are determined by 50% + 1 of the citizens.

What about the 'civic rights' of the 49%?

Quote:

You cannot negotiate civil rights and laws that regulate them with apes, bees or ants, no matter how organised their 'societies' are.

The 49% are still human, even if their concept of rights - natural/inalienable or civic - are rejected by the majority.

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Frank

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #41 - Jan 9^th, 2023 at 11:19am

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 10:25am:

Frank wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 10:13am:

You can negotiate civil rights only with beings whom you mutually recognise as having the same natural rights as you - human beings with natural rights equal to yours.

Ah...you mean the 'natural right' to an elected adversarial democracy, in which the negotiated civil rights are determined by 50% + 1 of the citizens.

What about the 'civic rights' of the 49%?

Quote:

You cannot negotiate civil rights and laws that regulate them with apes, bees or ants, no matter how organised their 'societies' are.

The 49% are still human, even if their concept of rights - natural/inalienable or civic - are rejected by the majority.

Don't be a Bbwianesque idiot on purpose ALL the time. Natural right are not for the 51% and civil rights for the 49%, FFS.

If you do not accept that humans share their fundamental humanity by which we recognise each other AS humans, say so.

But don't come the moronic repetitious parrot with the same dogma about "adversarial freedom ideology shite, as if you have not been given another, broader horizon to take in and engage with.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
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Lisa Jones

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Re: The delusions of NotsoGreat et al
Reply #42 - Jan 9^th, 2023 at 11:24am

Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 9:42am:

Frank wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 9:28am:

mothra wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 8:40am:

Frank wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 8:31am:

mothra wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 7:43am:

Frank wrote on Jan 9^th, 2023 at 6:49am:

AusGeoff wrote on Jan 8^th, 2023 at 8:42pm:

Can someone list my inalienable rights (that I currently enjoy) that
would be (or are) denied me by any past, future, or present Australian
federal governments?

I'm nor aware of any.

Life, thought, speech, property.

Life ... universal health care ... let's hope the ALP manage to restore Medicare.

Thought ... free eduaction for all. Dropped the ball on that one, didn't we.

Speech ... well, with all you get away with on here, i've no idea why your complaining. You get to say what you want you blithering snowflake. You just don't like that people tell you that you're an arsehole for it. Or that you're comments are unpopular. You refuse to take either hint so we're all just waiting patiently for you to die.

Property ... guaranteed housing for all? An end to homelessness? Sign me up!

Strike me pink old boy. Aside from the whinging, i think you're a socialist!

Totally unsurprisingly, Mrs Bbwian, you are hopelessly confused about natural and civil rights. But then you are both socialists so confusion and misunderstanding ARE your angle on everything.
Carry on, scatter them knickers.

Btw, I wasnt "winging", frightbat, I was responding to the Sage of Gippsland.
Have you done all the sweeping, washing up, ironing already?

Would you care to point out to me where i was wrong in your interpretation?

Surely you didn't just mean all of those rights for "some", did you?

Natural rights are based on our 'nature', being human. They are not dependent on social organisation.

Civil rights are about rights in a particular society, 'city' (civitas - citizenship, civil society). They vary from society to society, age to age. They are negotiated, if you like, by each society and so they unfold and change.

👆Frank teaching someone who alleges she/he/it has 3 University degrees (whilst living on the streets mind you) the basics of Yr 12 Legal Studies.

😂🤣😆

Did Methra attempt to mention FREE EDUCATION?

Oh the irony!

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #43 - Jan 9^th, 2023 at 11:28am

... because most of you simply do not understand the difference between 'inalienable rights' and 'your rights as accorded by your government'.... though I'll bet most of you who criticise that phrase adhere slavishly to the UN's Universal Declaration(s) of Human Rights..... and I'll bet most of you would differ about what your 'inalienable rights' are if you were a woman living in Afghanistan..... where their government allocates rights by .... divine right....

Such is the state of 'education' these days and of 'reasoning' ... no wonder the Marxists considered the common folk as not above cattle in the fields....

Sometimes in order to create Right, you must remove government's control over Rights.

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Jasin

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #44 - Jan 9^th, 2023 at 11:33am

In the Northern Hemisphere - such things as Politics and Military have been a source of 'empowerment' in regards to material advantage and control.
While such things as Art and Religion have been for the poor, but the greater population of racial empowerment.

Politics and Military only look after one thing - their own people within the establishment and who serve the establishment and whoever rules it.
Anyone else outside of that is 'off the grid' you could say, to use a modern term.
Theresa May resigned once she realised that although the people voted 'No', the Establishment over-ruled and ignored the people vote.
Even if the majority of people were behind Trump.
Biden and the political Establishment would 'legally' void the people's support of Trump and make it a 'crime'.
Hence why Obama with his hand up Biden's arse, is saying that anything other than what the Democrats say or do - is an attack on Democracy.
Desperate measures indeed - but basically that's what all forms of Politics in the Northern Hemisphere do, protect themselves from the 'outsiders' of Politics.

...meanwhile in Australia - Politics only exists by default via the Governor-Generals for Britain and the Prime Ministers for the USA. Further south than that and Politics fractures away to become nothing but a 'Racial Population Growth' in the image of Politics. Which in truth, is the only way Politics goes in this country.

But I'm sure most of you can't even get your heads wrapped around this one because you all think with just half a brain and its just the 'northern' half.

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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