Australian Politics Forum - The delusions of Western classical liberalism

thegreatdivide

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #75 - Jan 11^th, 2023 at 5:53pm

Frank wrote on Jan 11^th, 2023 at 4:18pm:

alienate (v.)
1510s, "transfer to the ownership of another;" 1540s, "make estranged" (in feelings or affections), from Latin alienatus, past participle of alienare "to make another's, part with; estrange, set at variance," from alienus "of or belonging to another person or place," from alius "another, other, different" (from PIE root *al- (1) "beyond"). Related: Alienated; alienating.

In Middle English the verb was simply alien, from Old French aliener and directly from Latin alienare. It is attested from mid-14c. in theology, "estrange" (from God, etc.; in past participle aliened); late 14c. as "break away (from), desert;" c. 1400 in law, "transfer or surrender one's title to property or rights."
https://www.etymonline.com/word/alienate#etymonline_v_8151

Unfortunately, soon after I replied to Franks' post re the postulated "right" to private property (as per Locke, in opposition to arbitrary confiscation by the king), Oz pol seized up for a long time; now the pages in the thread have been reversed, and we now have the non sequitur from Frank, above.

Outside interference in a debate about rights , including "the right" to freedom of speech? Wouldn't be surprised, hypocrisy among "freedom" ideologies is egregious.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #76 - Jan 12^th, 2023 at 1:32pm

To recap:

"all are created equal" ......no they aren't; what we CAN say is "all are born free",

"with certain inalienable rights".......the problem is 'inalienable rights' - ie, not subject to law - are difficult to identify beyond the right to liberty which belongs to all of us by reason of being born with our 'common' humanity (Frank refers to 'natural humanity').

eg the right to (private) property depends on the individual being able to pay for the property.

and the "right to pursue happiness" is merely a motherhood statement which follows on the right to liberty - we all desire to pursue happiness.

And yet with all these postulated rights (add your own: 'free speech', 'thought' etc), people continue to be killed in wars, and still forced (or tolerated by the majority) to subsist in entrenched poverty.

The only way to eradicate war, genocide and poverty is to - eradicate war, genocide and poverty.

You will find the false concepts such as 'sovereign individuals', based on presumed 'natural individual "rights"' ....and the obsolete concept of "national sovereignty" as a basis for determining relations among the community of nations, are at the root of the problem.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #77 - Jan 13^th, 2023 at 11:12am

Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality and equality before the law. Liberals espouse various views depending on their understanding of these principles.

We have seen "rights of the individual" are difficult to define, other than in law.

Hence 'equality before the law' sets up a circularity; equality in rights which have to be defined in law.

eg there can be no equal right to private property unless the law determines it.

Consent of the governed can be achieved by consensus meritocracy as well as by secret ballot in a democracy.

The former will of course need to produce the desired results to maintain legitimacy.

Collectivism stresses the importance of the community, while individualism is focused on the rights and concerns of each person.

Where unity and selflessness or altruism are valued traits in collectivist cultures, independence and personal identity are promoted in individualistic cultures.

A question of balance, for good governance....including the common welfare/common prosperity.

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« Last Edit: Jan 13^th, 2023 at 11:55am by thegreatdivide »

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Frank

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #78 - Jan 13^th, 2023 at 11:55am

Ithegreatdivide wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 11:12am:

Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality and equality before the law. Liberals espouse various views depending on their understanding of these principles.

We have seen "rights of the individual" are difficult to define, other than in law.

Hence 'equality before the law' sets up a circularity; equality in rights which have to be defined in law.

eg there can be no equal right to private property unless the law determines it.

Consent of the governed can be achieved by consensus meritocracy as well as by secret ballot in a democracy.

The former will of course need to produce the desired results to maintain legitimacy.

Collectivism stresses the importance of the community, while individualism is focused on the rights and concerns of each person.

Where unity and selflessness or altruism are valued traits in collectivist cultures, independence and personal identity are promoted in individualistic cultures.

A question of balance, for good governance....

Unity, selflessness, altruism - are these natural human traits or are they also definable only in law like freedom ( according to you)?
Where do th hey come from?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #79 - Jan 13^th, 2023 at 12:16pm

Frank wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 11:55am:

Ithegreatdivide wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 11:12am:

Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality and equality before the law. Liberals espouse various views depending on their understanding of these principles.

We have seen "rights of the individual" are difficult to define, other than in law.

Hence 'equality before the law' sets up a circularity; equality in rights which have to be defined in law.

eg there can be no equal right to private property unless the law determines it.

Consent of the governed can be achieved by consensus meritocracy as well as by secret ballot in a democracy.

The former will of course need to produce the desired results to maintain legitimacy.

Collectivism stresses the importance of the community, while individualism is focused on the rights and concerns of each person.

Where unity and selflessness or altruism are valued traits in collectivist cultures, independence and personal identity are promoted in individualistic cultures.

A question of balance, for good governance....

Unity, selflessness, altruism - are these natural human traits or are they also definable only in law like freedom ( according to you)?
Where do th hey come from?

As already noted, freedom is the one "inalienable" right which might be said does not need to be defined in law, because we are all born free (outside of slavery).

Yet we have the French-proposed "liberty, equality, and fraternity".

Unity is obviously not an 'inalienable right' it is achieved by consensus; nor are selflessness and altruism, which reside in the 'conscience' possessed by humans endowed with the cortex brain, enabling awareness of the desires and motivations of self and others.

And triumphing over the ego and the id....(to use the Freudian concept, rather than the triune brain-physiology method)

Hence the term "sociopaths": those without a conscience.

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« Last Edit: Jan 13^th, 2023 at 12:27pm by thegreatdivide »

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #80 - Jan 13^th, 2023 at 1:45pm

.... and yet ..... and yet ....... Western classical liberalism has created all of the great things so enjoyed in the world today.... despite the meanderings of the social scientists running riot for forty odd years now, man can never be reduced to his component parts and then be rebuilt in the image of the new creator..... the new Modern Prometheus nowhere more clearly shown than in the insanities of trying to change one's sex .... and thus become nothing more than a lifeless extension of the new overlord(s).....

No thanks...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #81 - Jan 13^th, 2023 at 2:06pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 1:45pm:

.... and yet ..... and yet ....... Western classical liberalism has created all of the great things so enjoyed in the world today....

like entrenched poverty and endless wars, which existed long before the communist experiments of the 20th century. ....and still exist after effective international law was foiled by demands that national sovereignty be upheld.

Quote:

despite the meanderings of the social scientists running riot for forty odd years now, man can never be reduced to his component parts and then be rebuilt in the image of the new creator..... the new Modern Prometheus nowhere more clearly shown than in the insanities of trying to change one's sex .... and thus become nothing more than a lifeless extension of the new overlord(s).....

No thanks...

Enjoy the Ukraine war (and all the rest)...despite the meanderings of social scientists; sex or no sex, doesn't matter.....

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #82 - Jan 13^th, 2023 at 2:22pm

... and long before any other form of highly organised economic activity... you can't just restrict that comment to communism with its clear failures and megadeaths.....

... told you ... that bloke lolly-gagging in the warm sun catching fish and using his provided gear and land cruiser and getting his regular dole or pension is one hell of a lot richer than any poor white boy struggling to pay rent in a city... you just refuse to see it and instead prefer to focus on the places where they have ruined the white man's way of doing things by not maintaining or even continuing services etc, but letting it all fall into rubbish heaps while they gallivant and fight and carry on.

The White Man's Way didn't and doesn't force them to live in garbage heaps - it offered and offers them the opportunity to get out of those and they - quite literally - sh

i

t on it. All they have to do is grab the ball and run with it.

Your universal job or income guarantee will do not one thing - you know why? Because the markets will simply swallow up every extra cent doing the rounds for no real long term or even short term benefit, same as they do for every rise in wages or social security payments or whatever. Told yez decades ago about the MADIF creating a sudden escalation in house prices ... the moment the dual income family became more common, the price of a house doubled, then tripled, then went up and up like a rocket... and the result is there now for all to see - IF they choose to.

Been telling yez for years now that the only viable solution is to first get a firm hold on costs of living and then work out the optimum way of ensuring everyone has enough.

You just don't know how to listen, especially the ideology bound Labor types these days in their silliness and preference for blindness to reality.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Bias_2012

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #83 - Jan 13^th, 2023 at 2:48pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 12:16pm:

As already noted, freedom is the one "inalienable" right which might be said does not need to be defined in law, because we are all born free (outside of slavery).

Yet we have the French-proposed "liberty, equality, and fraternity".

Yes, freedom does need to be defined in law and made permanent, because one persons freedom is another persons slavery

Conscription for example, is freedom for those who don't mind being conscripted, but it is slavery for others who see it as slavery .. and it is slavery

Here's a slave for you, there is no such thing as freedom in Australia, only if the Establishment said you can have some freedom ... for a little while. Then when they say you can't have freedom, you loose it

The same happened to Jews in Germany in the 30s and 40s, dragged off to camps ... our politicians never learned from that, and yet they condemned the German Nazis ... pot calling the kettle black

We need permanent rights and freedom that the Establishment and politicians can't touch. The United Nations Human Rights is not binding on us, they can be ignored by our dictatorial politicians

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #84 - Jan 13^th, 2023 at 3:06pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 2:48pm:

We need permanent rights and freedom that the Establishment and politicians can't touch. The United Nations Human Rights is not binding on us, they can be ignored by our dictatorial politicians

The rights set out in the UN Universal DHR can't be enacted because the obsolete concept of national sovereignty prevents the UN from enacting those rights under the aegis of international law.

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #85 - Jan 13^th, 2023 at 3:29pm

That's because international law has no rights without international approval.... meaning each individual nation must make the sovereign decision to accept it.

So your argument founders again. Theory is all well and good... but in the end it comes back again and again to national and then personal sovereignty.... with the only alternative being one massive worldwide despotism imposed by force ......

You'll get there.... keep going..

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Frank

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #86 - Jan 13^th, 2023 at 5:00pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 12:16pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 11:55am:

Ithegreatdivide wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 11:12am:

Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality and equality before the law. Liberals espouse various views depending on their understanding of these principles.

We have seen "rights of the individual" are difficult to define, other than in law.

Hence 'equality before the law' sets up a circularity; equality in rights which have to be defined in law.

eg there can be no equal right to private property unless the law determines it.

Consent of the governed can be achieved by consensus meritocracy as well as by secret ballot in a democracy.

The former will of course need to produce the desired results to maintain legitimacy.

Collectivism stresses the importance of the community, while individualism is focused on the rights and concerns of each person.

Where unity and selflessness or altruism are valued traits in collectivist cultures, independence and personal identity are promoted in individualistic cultures.

A question of balance, for good governance....

Unity, selflessness, altruism - are these natural human traits or are they also definable only in law like freedom ( according to you)?
Where do they come from?

As already noted, freedom is the one "inalienable" right which might be said does not need to be defined in law, because we are all born free (outside of slavery).

Yet we have the French-proposed "liberty, equality, and fraternity".

Unity is obviously not an 'inalienable right' it is achieved by consensus; nor are selflessness and altruism, which reside in the 'conscience' possessed by humans endowed with the cortex brain, enabling awareness of the desires and motivations of self and others.

And triumphing over the ego and the id....(to use the Freudian concept, rather than the triune brain-physiology method)

Hence the term "sociopaths": those without a conscience.

I didn't ask if they were inalienable rights, tapdancing parrot.

I asked about human nature.

And what happened to evil freedom you have been parrotting incessantly until 2 minutes ago? Pauline turn? Memory loss?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #87 - Jan 13^th, 2023 at 5:16pm

Frank wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 5:00pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 12:16pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 11:55am:

Ithegreatdivide wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 11:12am:

Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality and equality before the law. Liberals espouse various views depending on their understanding of these principles.

We have seen "rights of the individual" are difficult to define, other than in law.

Hence 'equality before the law' sets up a circularity; equality in rights which have to be defined in law.

eg there can be no equal right to private property unless the law determines it.

Consent of the governed can be achieved by consensus meritocracy as well as by secret ballot in a democracy.

The former will of course need to produce the desired results to maintain legitimacy.

Collectivism stresses the importance of the community, while individualism is focused on the rights and concerns of each person.

Where unity and selflessness or altruism are valued traits in collectivist cultures, independence and personal identity are promoted in individualistic cultures.

A question of balance, for good governance....

Unity, selflessness, altruism - are these natural human traits or are they also definable only in law like freedom ( according to you)?
Where do they come from?

As already noted, freedom is the one "inalienable" right which might be said does not need to be defined in law, because we are all born free (outside of slavery).

Yet we have the French-proposed "liberty, equality, and fraternity".

Unity is obviously not an 'inalienable right' it is achieved by consensus; nor are selflessness and altruism, which reside in the 'conscience' possessed by humans endowed with the cortex brain, enabling awareness of the desires and motivations of self and others.

And triumphing over the ego and the id....(to use the Freudian concept, rather than the triune brain-physiology method)

Hence the term "sociopaths": those without a conscience.

I didn't ask if they were inalienable rights, tapdancing parrot.

I asked about human nature.

I thought we had that sorted: human nature is manifested by a complex interaction of id, ego, reason and conscience.

Quote:

And what happened to evil freedom you have been parrotting incessantly until 2 minutes ago? Pauline turn? Memory loss?

"evil freedom": ie BLIND, SELF-INTERESTED (egoistic) FREEDOM.....it's still very much alive and kicking....

Question?

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Frank

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #88 - Jan 13^th, 2023 at 5:45pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 5:16pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 5:00pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 12:16pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 11:55am:

Ithegreatdivide wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 11:12am:

Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality and equality before the law. Liberals espouse various views depending on their understanding of these principles.

We have seen "rights of the individual" are difficult to define, other than in law.

Hence 'equality before the law' sets up a circularity; equality in rights which have to be defined in law.

eg there can be no equal right to private property unless the law determines it.

Consent of the governed can be achieved by consensus meritocracy as well as by secret ballot in a democracy.

The former will of course need to produce the desired results to maintain legitimacy.

Collectivism stresses the importance of the community, while individualism is focused on the rights and concerns of each person.

Where unity and selflessness or altruism are valued traits in collectivist cultures, independence and personal identity are promoted in individualistic cultures.

A question of balance, for good governance....

Unity, selflessness, altruism - are these natural human traits or are they also definable only in law like freedom ( according to you)?
Where do they come from?

As already noted, freedom is the one "inalienable" right which might be said does not need to be defined in law, because we are all born free (outside of slavery).

Yet we have the French-proposed "liberty, equality, and fraternity".

Unity is obviously not an 'inalienable right' it is achieved by consensus; nor are selflessness and altruism, which reside in the 'conscience' possessed by humans endowed with the cortex brain, enabling awareness of the desires and motivations of self and others.

And triumphing over the ego and the id....(to use the Freudian concept, rather than the triune brain-physiology method)

Hence the term "sociopaths": those without a conscience.

I didn't ask if they were inalienable rights, tapdancing parrot.

I asked about human nature.

I thought we had that sorted: human nature is manifested by a complex interaction of id, ego, reason and conscience.

Quote:

And what happened to evil freedom you have been parrotting incessantly until 2 minutes ago? Pauline turn? Memory loss?

"evil freedom": ie BLIND, SELF-INTERESTED (egoistic) FREEDOM.....it's still very much alive and kicking....

Question?

SOOOOOO..... Unity, selflessness, altruism - are these natural human traits?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The delusions of Western classical liberalism
Reply #89 - Jan 13^th, 2023 at 6:18pm

Frank wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 5:45pm: