Frank wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 5:45pm:

Claims are often made that is so but reality tells many of those pretending to support such are monstrous hypocrites whose motives are no more than tribal if not viciously selfish. On the other hand Ayn Rand claims selfishness as a virtue. Underneath of such claims of allegiance to some kind of moral system lies the reality of human nature itself, a topic few (Apart from Arthur Koestler and some others)  are brave enough to discuss. Or to put is as simply as I can, we are what we are.

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jan 13^th, 2023 at 10:32pm:


Obfuscation, the best we can expect from you I suppose. 

As Ayn Marx noted:
" ... the reality of human nature itself, a topic few (Apart from Arthur Koestler and some others)  are brave enough to discuss".

You of course are a classic, hiding behind meaningless "freedom values", which - like "rights" - have to be defined.

We are told the US and Japan share the same "democratic values" in opposition to the "authoritarian values" of China.

So what, does that difference in "values" need to be settled by war, given that the Chinese people themselves are satisfied with their "authoritarian" government (while it continues lift their living standards)?

Frank has yet to acknowledge the "angelic traits"  of human nature emanating from the cortex-based "conscience", in contrast to the "satanist traits" of human nature emanating from the id/ego. 

The fact that we are all capable of displaying both sets of traits at different times, is well acknowledged by social scientists.

Frank wrote on Jan 14^th, 2023 at 10:18am:
 

I was wondering how the debate would end.....

So you think "democratic values" will save the world..

...and you deny you are capable of evil.

The demand for national sovereignty is merely another example of the aggregation of the natural egoistic preference for individual rights above unity of the collective. 

Clear case in point - and I'm not going to spend all day arguing with you over it:-

"You of course are a classic, hiding behind meaningless "freedom values", which - like "rights" - have to be defined.

We are told the US and Japan share the same "democratic values" in opposition to the "authoritarian values" of China.

So what, does that difference in "values" need to be settled by war, given that the Chinese people themselves are satisfied with their "authoritarian" government (while it continues lift their living standards)? "

Never used the term 'freedom values' - and I've explained to you time and time and time again that anything you demand will need the considered acceptance of countries and people - all personal and national sovereignty issues.

What makes you imagine that discussion of different national values means war?  Clearly you miss the actual events going on around you... the expansionism, usurpation of territory, the moves to establish strategic toeholds and break down international friendships and alliances, crushing down on those in the population who disagree, the sabre-rattling and strutting...... your twisted philosophical meanderings will not alter those one iota.... it is not the differences in 'values' that will cause war - it is the vile intrusions of one side, clear to anyone with eyes.

One side only is doing those things.... not the other.

Who cares what you think the Chinese people are satisfied with?  How could you possibly know that - and if it is so, why are there demonstrations etc?  Why do so many Chinese want to leave?  Why do so many settle here?  Because it's all sweetness and light back 'home'?

Stop propagandising - it's not working.

Well - they all have their theories - none of which has worked yet... and every 'empire' in history has never lasted ... so your New World Order of a totally subjugated mass of people (the Hunger Games masses) and a ruling elite (Capital City) will not last anyway, but will collapse once more into the same basic structure as we have now - personal and national and tribal sovereignty and so forth.

Your dream is just that - a dream - it will never bear fruit, and will instead of becoming a great liberating force for mankind, will collapse it into a new Dark Age of despotism and terror and endless division; at the very least driving it back into a feudal style society with well-heeled Overlords and masses of right-less peasants to do their bidding while struggling to survive.

You will NEVER convince some groups to give up their personal fiefdoms.  Can you really see the ayatollahs (and the lowatollahs) kindly giving up their religious based supremacy so as to create heaven on earth for all equally?  Are you kidding me?  Can you really see your rabid communists giving up their priviliged position in their society and genuinely sharing it with the masses and with the rest of the world?  Can you really see your Top Capitalists doing the same?

The best you should be looking for is trade advantages for your own first... that's the way a true world economy keeps going around... and drop all the namby-pamby stuff of liberating the world that doesn't know how to be liberated and making them all equal to the majority, but not to the ruling elite in any country, who will perforce remain above all that and will dwell in luxury untold.

Sorry, son - all you are advocating is - like feminism - not changing the underlying structures with all their faults - but simply changing who gets to run the show.... and who will continue to benefit while the rest take it on the chin more and more.

Frank wrote on Jan 14^th, 2023 at 3:51pm:


Ah...I'll give you the benefit of a doubt...

"natural human traits' are not the same as 'natural human rights'; as we have seen, the latter are difficult to define, and the former range from evil to good. 

Quote:


You were the first to introduce 'traits', which was an obfuscation re the concept of "rights". 

Indeed, the traits of "Unity, selflessness, altruism", those traits on the 'good' spectrum' of human traits, are superior toWestern "freedom values" lauding the freedom of the individual, despite possessing evil and good traits (eg greed/competition versus generosity/co-operation).   

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 15^th, 2023 at 10:35am:

SOOOOOO.....  Unity, selflessness, altruism - are these natural/intrinsic/inherent human traits/right/values or are they, like your idea of freedom, only legally created and defined?
Not a hard question

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