Australian Politics Forum - Australian model for achieve peace in Ukraine

freediver

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Re: Australian model for achieve peace in Ukraine
Reply #30 - Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 7:16am

Mortdooley wrote on Jan 21^st, 2023 at 10:31pm:

I know few will understand it or even believe it but Russia asked to join NATO soon after the fall of the Soviet Union. The weapons suppliers needed tensions to continue for increased sales and the request was denied. George H W Bush and Dick Chaney declared Russia the enemy that needed to be punished for the sins of the Soviet Union and that continues to this day! If Russia had felt secure in their Borders this invasion would have never happened. I don't support Putin in any way but I understand his motivation!

The communists killed far more people than the Nazis. It's easy to dismiss them today, because reality has taken all the appeal away from the ideology, but they were probably a bigger threat to civilisation. The system that has since emerged in Russia is still not one I would trust. They are just one charismatic leader away from dictatorship.

Having multinational organisations with genuine clout that are not infested with tinpot dictators is a good thing. The tension would not disappear just because Russia was allowed to join NATO.

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 47333 Gender:	Re: Australian model for achieve peace in Ukraine Reply #31 - Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 7:21am Looking at the poverty in the USA - I don't think Capitalism is much better than Communism.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: Australian model for achieve peace in Ukraine Reply #32 - Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 7:27am Jasin wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 7:21am: Looking at the poverty in the USA - I don't think Capitalism is much better than Communism. It depends whether you look with your eyes open or closed.
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Jasin

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Re: Australian model for achieve peace in Ukraine
Reply #33 - Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 7:44am

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 7:27am:

Jasin wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 7:21am:

Looking at the poverty in the USA - I don't think Capitalism is much better than Communism.

It depends whether you look with your eyes open or closed.

Oh very much open.
It was safer to travel the USSR as a tourist than it is with Capitalism Russia today. As long as your papers were in order and you followed their wishes and respected their privacies - you were free to travel the country and were entirely 'safe'.
Would you call America a 'safe' country to travel FD?
Maybe you would need to hire a posse to protect you?

I think it more a case of two wrongs not making a right.
Under the Democrats (flip side of Confederates) - America is still living as if in the Old Worlds and there-in lays its own flaws and corruptions.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: Australian model for achieve peace in Ukraine Reply #34 - Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 7:54am Quote: Maybe you would need to hire a posse to protect you? You've never been to the US, have you? Or Russia?
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issuevoter

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Re: Australian model for achieve peace in Ukraine
Reply #35 - Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 8:01am

I don't know the actual details of any decision by NATO to exclude Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union, but I would have to see the proof that companies manufacturing weapons swayed the decision. For decades I have been listening to the innuendo as the principal power behind the West, especially from Peaceniks and the Left. Europe, which is the principal concern of NATO acted in the opposite direction by minimising its military and adopting policies of appeasement toward Russia. Although critics and enemies would have you believe it, the US does not run NATO, and because it rightly puts great emphasis on military matters, the military does not run the US.

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Jasin

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Re: Australian model for achieve peace in Ukraine
Reply #36 - Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 8:03am

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 7:54am:

Quote:

Maybe you would need to hire a posse to protect you?

You've never been to the US, have you? Or Russia?

Luckily no. Why would I go to a 'goomba' nation of stupidity that is physically strong in its large populations of poverty with only a few brain cells up top ruling its ever action?

Do you need to go into a Prison to know what Prisoners are like?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Australian model for achieve peace in Ukraine
Reply #37 - Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 8:18am

issuevoter wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 8:01am:

I don't know the actual details of any decision by NATO to exclude Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union, but I would have to see the proof that companies manufacturing weapons swayed the decision. For decades I have been listening to the innuendo as the principal power behind the West, especially from Peaceniks and the Left. Europe, which is the principal concern of NATO acted in the opposite direction by minimising its military and adopting policies of appeasement toward Russia. Although critics and enemies would have you believe it, the US does not run NATO, and because it rightly puts great emphasis on military matters, the military does not run the US.

NATO did entertain the notion of Russia joining NATO. However, Gorbachev's and Yeltsin's Russia demanded a dominant role, commensurate with that of a superpower and equal to the US, which Russia was receding from. NATO, of course, did not agree to Russia's terms.

NATO did expand beyond what was agreed with Gorbachev when ex-Warsaw pact nations requested admission - they, being fully aware that any promise of Russian non-aggression agreements with them would be empty, and knew that it was not a question of if Russia would attempt to reclaim eastern Europe, but when.

The US is, by far and away, the most influential member of NATO, without which NATO would be a European chat group. Prior to the Ukraine war, European NATO members could not be trusted even to pay towards NATO at the rate agreed.

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freediver

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Re: Australian model for achieve peace in Ukraine
Reply #38 - Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 8:30am

Jasin wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 8:03am:

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 7:54am:

Quote:

Maybe you would need to hire a posse to protect you?

You've never been to the US, have you? Or Russia?

Luckily no. Why would I go to a 'goomba' nation of stupidity that is physically strong in its large populations of poverty with only a few brain cells up top ruling its ever action?

Do you need to go into a Prison to know what Prisoners are like?

I would put zero value in someone who had never been to prison telling me what it is like on the inside.

I have spent over 12 months in the US and Canada, on several trips. I never once felt unsafe.

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Jasin

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Re: Australian model for achieve peace in Ukraine
Reply #39 - Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 8:57am

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 8:30am:

Jasin wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 8:03am:

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 7:54am:

Quote:

Maybe you would need to hire a posse to protect you?

You've never been to the US, have you? Or Russia?

Luckily no. Why would I go to a 'goomba' nation of stupidity that is physically strong in its large populations of poverty with only a few brain cells up top ruling its ever action?

Do you need to go into a Prison to know what Prisoners are like?

I would put zero value in someone who had never been to prison telling me what it is like on the inside.

I have spent over 12 months in the US and Canada, on several trips. I never once felt unsafe.

Well, I suppose I can believe you - being a Queenslander is like being an 'American' Australian eh?
Maybe I'm not American enough to feel safe in that privatised political nation back there at the 'end of the world'.
Did you just participate in the Safe White Zones while in the USA? That would be like just going to the Zones marked out for tourists in North Korea too, no?

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freediver

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Re: Australian model for achieve peace in Ukraine
Reply #40 - Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 10:33am

Jasin wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 8:57am:

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 8:30am:

Jasin wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 8:03am:

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 7:54am:

Quote:

Maybe you would need to hire a posse to protect you?

You've never been to the US, have you? Or Russia?

Luckily no. Why would I go to a 'goomba' nation of stupidity that is physically strong in its large populations of poverty with only a few brain cells up top ruling its ever action?

Do you need to go into a Prison to know what Prisoners are like?

I would put zero value in someone who had never been to prison telling me what it is like on the inside.

I have spent over 12 months in the US and Canada, on several trips. I never once felt unsafe.

Well, I suppose I can believe you - being a Queenslander is like being an 'American' Australian eh?
Maybe I'm not American enough to feel safe in that privatised political nation back there at the 'end of the world'.
Did you just participate in the Safe White Zones while in the USA? That would be like just going to the Zones marked out for tourists in North Korea too, no?

Yes Jasin. I didn't have a pass to get into the coloured districts.

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 47333 Gender:	Re: Australian model for achieve peace in Ukraine Reply #41 - Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 1:07pm Maybe if you bought a gun or two, they might have given you permission to venture out off the 'safe path'. I'm sure your would feel better knowing your paperwork is in order.
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Sophia

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Re: Australian model for achieve peace in Ukraine
Reply #42 - Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 10:03pm

Jasin wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 1:07pm:

Maybe if you bought a gun or two, they might have given you permission to venture out off the 'safe path'. I'm sure your would feel better knowing your paperwork is in order.

Interesting about “unsafe” areas… I’m certain all countries have them. No go zones.
I live in Melbourne Eastern and all my life I knew the areas to avoid like the Docklands before they became updated and yuppy… from a place to avoid… now a place to go to!

I toured Canada and it’s a beautiful place except one area I forgot the name (it would be in my travel notes) it was a real red-neck-everyone-drives-utes place.
Pubs were a bit rough and the hotel reminded me of the psycho Bates motel Grin

A few in the tour group refused to stay there!
The idea was to be versatile with the Canadian experience… I didn’t mind it at all and by morning… the others were whinging about bad beds and lack of sleep… for some reason I had the best sleep that night with an open window (2nd floor) and fresh evening air rather than locked up air con rooms.
Geez I’ve roughed it camping for years so it was all okay for me…
As for USA I loved it so much and the people are so friendly!
There’s a lot of soul in the USA… I would live there in a heart beat… and yes I would purchase a gun or two because I could!
The two places I hated in my travels…Rome (Italy) and Suva (Fiji)
More no go scary zones than I anticipated!

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Sophia Gold Member Offline Posts: 8278	Re: Australian model for achieve peace in Ukraine Reply #43 - Jan 22^nd, 2023 at 10:13pm Sorry… did I go off topic?
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Jasin

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Re: Australian model for achieve peace in Ukraine
Reply #44 - Jan 23^rd, 2023 at 10:41am

No. My friend travelled with his father into the USSR long ago. He said it was a wonderful experience where as long as you followed the yellow brick road and didn't stray, everything went smoothly. The Soviets were always nice and helpful and liked Australians and his father was practically always pissed on Vodka. Grin

His dad was there on 'political' business and he said on many occassion they were treated well in a casual unofficial way.

5 years ago on phone. He told me that "No way!" would he travel Russia today - far too dangerous unless you paid for a lot of heavily armed bodyguards. Sounded a bit like the USA to me.

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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