Australian Politics Forum - Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!

iSteveSteve

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #15 - Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:20pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:09pm:

Gordon wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 11:06am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 10:51am:

Ah, the post-truth world!

He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament.

Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did?

No, this war was always going to happen.

Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence.

That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat.

It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it.

The nation with the biggest nuclear arsenal doesn't face an "existential threat".

Quote:

Russia
Russia has the most confirmed nuclear weapons, with 5,997 nuclear warheads. The United States follows behind with 5,428 nuclear weapons, hosted in the US and 5 other nations: Turkey, Italy, Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands.

Countries with nuclear weapons - ICAN

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #16 - Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:22pm

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:15pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:09pm:

Gordon wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 11:06am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 10:51am:

Ah, the post-truth world!

He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament.

Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did?

No, this war was always going to happen.

Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence.

That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat.

It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it.

So Ukraine is to Russia what Vietnam was to the US?

Of course, but not what Taiwan is to China, which is an internal dispute among Chinese.

Good to see you guys observing the disastrous effects of self-interest, in determining what is 'defensive' war.

Time for international law to overrule self-interest, for the well-being of the whole.

"All must submit to rule of law, if all are to be free." Cicero.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #17 - Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:28pm

iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:20pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:09pm:

Gordon wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 11:06am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 10:51am:

Ah, the post-truth world!

He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament.

Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did?

No, this war was always going to happen.

Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence.

That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat.

It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it.

The nation with the biggest nuclear arsenal doesn't face an "existential threat".

It does, if it's faced with a conventional war of attrition against a combined NATO with more than 20 times the GDP.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #18 - Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:28pm

iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:20pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:09pm:

Gordon wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 11:06am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 10:51am:

Ah, the post-truth world!

He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament.

Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did?

No, this war was always going to happen.

Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence.

That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat.

It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it.

The nation with the biggest nuclear arsenal doesn't face an "existential threat".

Yes, it does.

Russia is most vulnerable on its western borders to its only habitable land mass - the central region of Russia. This has been a source of paranoia to Russians for hundreds of years.

Tactical nuclear weapons are not feasible if the damage and fallout are going to drift back into Russia, and even less so if they use them close to the Russian border, making the land likely unusable for Russian purposes.

Russia will not tolerate any nation on its western borders outside its sphere of influence - that's why the Baltic states, Finland and Poland know Ukraine is not the end of this.

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Frank

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #19 - Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:29pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:22pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:15pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:09pm:

Gordon wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 11:06am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 10:51am:

Ah, the post-truth world!

He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament.

Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did?

No, this war was always going to happen.

Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence.

That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat.

It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it.

So Ukraine is to Russia what Vietnam was to the US?

Of course, but not what Taiwan is to China, which is an internal dispute among Chinese.

Good to see you guys observing the disastrous effects of self-interest, in determining what is 'defensive' war.

Time for international law to overrule self-interest, for the well-being of the whole.

"All must submit to rule of law, if all are to be free." Cicero.

Job guarantee would have stopped Putin. Zelensky could just print more money and buy all the battalions of tanks and squadrons of fighter bombers he needs. And the UN could have pursued its collective lips a bit more convincingly.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Dnarever

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #20 - Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:46pm

Gordon wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 11:06am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 10:51am:

Ah, the post-truth world!

He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament.

Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow

t

he course he did?

Yes Trump would have allowed Putin to think he could do whatever he liked.

More seriously no it's a complete garbage claim. Putin had this on the books going back to the 1990's. There was zero provocation from the west unless you look at things like letting Putin take Crimea with no opposition and the devastating mess that Trump left behind following his insurection.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #21 - Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:47pm

Frank wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:29pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:22pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:15pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:09pm:

Gordon wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 11:06am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 10:51am:

Ah, the post-truth world!

He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament.

Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did?

No, this war was always going to happen.

Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence.

That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat.

It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it.

So Ukraine is to Russia what Vietnam was to the US?

Of course, but not what Taiwan is to China, which is an internal dispute among Chinese.

Good to see you guys observing the disastrous effects of self-interest, in determining what is 'defensive' war.

Time for international law to overrule self-interest, for the well-being of the whole.

"All must submit to rule of law, if all are to be free." Cicero.

Job guarantee would have stopped Putin.

Zelensky could just print more money

No he couldn't; Putin's invasion has wrecked Ukraine's productive capacity, which is the sine qua non of MMT.

Quote:

and buy all the battalions of tanks and squadrons of fighter bombers he needs. And the UN could have pursued its collective lips a bit more convincingly.

Actually it seems Biden is a secret MMTer: he is handing over $billions in armaments to Ukraine, despite the US's $31 trillion in debt, and the coming 'debt ceiling' charade in Congress...

Note: Biden apparently knows the US can't run out of US dollars, the issue is its ability to keep producing armaments, while servicing the needs of its own people.

As for the poor UN, it's confused by the disastrous doctrine of "defensive", hence "legal" war between nations, despite the fact 'defence' is in the eye of the beholder - as Putin has spelled out for all to see, with his 'special military operation'.

Sheer madness on a global scale.

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« Last Edit: Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:53pm by thegreatdivide »

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lee Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 17948 Gender:	Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia! Reply #22 - Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:50pm thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:47pm: Actually it seems Biden is a secret MMTer: he is handing over $billions in armaments to Ukraine, despite the US's $31 trillion in debt, and the coming 'debt ceiling' charade in Congress... So Dementia Joe living up to his moniker.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #23 - Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:58pm

lee wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:50pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:47pm:

Actually it seems Biden is a secret MMTer: he is handing over $billions in armaments to Ukraine, despite the US's $31 trillion in debt, and the coming 'debt ceiling' charade in Congress...

So Dementia Joe living up to his moniker. Roll Eyes

Haha...a cheap insult, thanks for the chuckle.

But lucky for the US population, their grandchildren need not be on the hook for all that debt which will NEVER be repaid....

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iSteveSteve

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #24 - Mar 4^th, 2023 at 5:52pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:28pm:

iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:20pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:09pm:

Gordon wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 11:06am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 10:51am:

Ah, the post-truth world!

He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament.

Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did?

No, this war was always going to happen.

Ukrainians made a fateful decision when they decided to cast their lot with western political governance models and western values, as they indicated that they would be exiting the Russian cultural and political sphere of influence.

That's when it became, for Russians, not just an insult but a perceived existential threat.

It's what Putin and Lavrov really mean when they say Ukraine started it.

The nation with the biggest nuclear arsenal doesn't face an "existential threat".

It does, if it's faced with a conventional war of attrition against a combined NATO with more than 20 times the GDP.

NATO is shiting its pants at the thought of a nuclear war.
It wouldn't back Russia/putler in a corner.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #25 - Mar 4^th, 2023 at 6:05pm

iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 5:52pm:

NATO is shiting its pants at the thought of a nuclear war.

No it's not.

NATO has been tracking Putin's location so well, he has taken to using a train as opposed to flying in an attempt to conceal his whereabouts.

Apparently, Putin has been warned that he and his family will be targeted for execution in the event of using nuclear weapons, notwithstanding that Russia itself would lose all its remaining support if they were used. India has already warned Russia that all diplomatic relations it has with Russia would be severed. Even the CCP would be forced to cut ties with Russia.

And that's not including the fact that the US has the logistics and the air power to cripple the entire Russian state from the air within a week if required. - that's all Russian military installations and utility infrastructure.

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iSteveSteve

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #26 - Mar 4^th, 2023 at 6:19pm

issuevoter wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:20pm:

Utter rubbish from Lavrov and those here who half believe him. But I wouldn't expect any less from a bunch Leftist America-hating Australians who have always sympathised with the communists.

Putin and his thugs started getting ready for this war in 2013 when his puppet got kicked out of Kiev. First Georgia, and the West did nothing. Next Crimea, then those "maneuvers" on the boarder in 2021.

However, the Russian federation guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for their nuclear weapons in 1994. That was just the first of their post-Soviet lies.

The Russians have always been liars. They lied about involvement in the Korean War because they were afraid of the UN forces. They lied about involvement in Vietnam too.

How can one post have so many valid points?
Kudos.

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Dnarever

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #27 - Mar 4^th, 2023 at 6:44pm

iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 6:19pm:

issuevoter wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:20pm:

Utter rubbish from Lavrov and those here who half believe him. But I wouldn't expect any less from a bunch Leftist America-hating Australians who have always sympathised with the communists.

Putin and his thugs started getting ready for this war in 2013 when his puppet got kicked out of Kiev. First Georgia, and the West did nothing. Next Crimea, then those "maneuvers" on the boarder in 2021.

However, the Russian federation guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for their nuclear weapons in 1994. That was just the first of their post-Soviet lies.

The Russians have always been liars. They lied about involvement in the Korean War because they were afraid of the UN forces. They lied about involvement in Vietnam too.

How can one post have so many valid points?
Kudos.

I agree it is all correct.

Quote:

Russian federation guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in exchange for their nuclear weapons in 1994.

That is true but it is difficult to lock new leaders into past agreements. While you are correct in this as soon as Putin came to power he announced that he intended to put the USSR back together how it was. They threw this commitment out in the 1990's.

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iSteveSteve

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #28 - Mar 4^th, 2023 at 7:08pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 6:05pm:

iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 5:52pm:

NATO is shiting its pants at the thought of a nuclear war.

No it's not.

NATO has been tracking Putin's location so well, he has taken to using a train as opposed to flying in an attempt to conceal his whereabouts.

Apparently, Putin has been warned that he and his family will be targeted for execution in the event of using nuclear weapons, notwithstanding that Russia itself would lose all its remaining support if they were used. India has already warned Russia that all diplomatic relations it has with Russia would be severed. Even the CCP would be forced to cut ties with Russia.

And that's not including the fact that the US has the logistics and the air power to cripple the entire Russian state from the air within a week if required. - that's all Russian military installations and utility infrastructure.

Well, based on the myriad of reports I have read since the beginning of the war, yes, they were shiteing their pants.

putler created those ridiculous referendums that no one took seriously to falsely give the impression that the Ukrainians were fighting on Russian soil.
Epic fail.
If Russia proper were attacked, it would be a different story.
Tactical nuclear weapons would be in the cards, imo.

Countries are terrified about a possible nuclear holocaust, and that is why they have been dancing around what they can and can't give to Ukraine.
Poland, as an example, has been issuing iodine pills in the event of a nuclear attack
The idea is being taken VERY seriously.

Why else would countries have been so hesitant at the beginning of the war when it was seen how the Ukrainians effectively fought back?
It took them forever to decide on giving Ukraine tanks, and even now, there is a lot of fart arseing around about giving military planes.
pulter's only real trump card is the threat of MAD.

If Russia's existence were to be threatened, I don't think they would care about being the naughty kid on the block.

"Read my lips."
Biden was shiteing his pants at the possibility of nuclear weapons being used.

And if putler was assassinated, it would PROBABLY just end there, rather than a full-on annihilation of the Russian state with its consequences.
A new leader would allow a diplomatic reset, no doubt.
Most Russians wouldn't want to be involved in a nuclear holocaust.
Trust me on that. Cool

BTW, personally, I never took putler's threat about the use of nuclear weapons seriously, even though many around me did.
I have lived too many years to take that nonsense to heart.
But had I been wrong, I would has simply said: "Well, blow me down. You were right. You win... and enjoy the apocalypse." Wink

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issuevoter Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9200 The Great State of Mind Gender:	Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia! Reply #29 - Mar 4^th, 2023 at 7:16pm One country that will not come out of this smiling, is Iran. Zelensky's friends will see to that.
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