Australian Politics Forum - Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!

Belgarion Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5447 Gender:	Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia! Reply #30 - Mar 4^th, 2023 at 8:34pm Bring back the Iraqi Information Minister!
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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 47272 Gender:	Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia! Reply #31 - Mar 4^th, 2023 at 8:47pm Belgarion wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 8:34pm: Bring back the Iraqi Information Minister! Yeah, Chemical Ali stuff. Which was Black Knight stuff.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #32 - Mar 4^th, 2023 at 8:50pm

iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 7:08pm:

A new leader would allow a diplomatic reset, no doubt.

Oh really!

What would the details of a reset look like?

Russians are going to want something out of this and what NATO has planned, with Putin still in charge, is for Russia to annex the pro-Russian south and southeastern Ukrainian oblasts and for the world ultimately to recognise the annexation.

Zelensky has ruled that out, but he is going to have no choice.

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Captain Caveman

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #33 - Mar 6^th, 2023 at 5:10am

Gordon wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 11:06am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 10:51am:

Ah, the post-truth world!

He's parroting Putin who made the claim in his address to the Russian parliament.

Putin is on the hook for a lot, but is it also fair enough to say the west (USA) conducted itself in a way that 100% ensured Putin would follow he course he did?

Yes.

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issuevoter

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #34 - Mar 6^th, 2023 at 7:13am

It surprises me that anyone even reports what Lavrov has to say. We all know it is lies and obfuscation with the intent to confuse the issue.

1) Communist Soviet Union collapses.
2) Attempts to establish democracy.
3) Corruption leads to national resources being given to individuals.
4) Putin ex KGB uses oligarch favours to change Presidency to dictatorship.
5) Ukraine votes for European values and kicks out Putin's puppet.
6) Putin siezes control of Georgia, and Crimea after getting rid of Ukraines nuclear arms.
7) Huge Russian force attempts to take Ukraine and use the Carpathian mountain range for military advantage over eastern Europe.

If anyone doesn't see that Poland Romania and the Baltic states are next, well, they are thick as two bricks.

But all of this is the evil NATO plan to destroy Russia which will mean losing billions of Western investment while allowing NATO's military to be dismantled by succession of anti-war, policies intended, ironically, to integrate Russia with EU economic prosperity.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49283 At my desk.	Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia! Reply #35 - Mar 6^th, 2023 at 7:21am What is the evil NATO plan? How did the US force Putin's hand?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #36 - Mar 6^th, 2023 at 11:15am

issuevoter wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 7:13am:

[size=12]It surprises me that anyone even reports what Lavrov has to say. We all know it is lies and obfuscation with the intent to confuse the issue.

1) Communist Soviet Union collapses.
2) Attempts to establish democracy.
3) Corruption leads to national resources being given to individuals.

The West is very poor at facing the consequences of entrenched disadvantage in market economies.

Russia of course went through hell trying to transition from a planned economy to a market economy - the life expectancy of Russian males dropped by a decade.

And the US rejected Russia's efforts to join NATO.

Putin revived the economy for a while in the 2000's on the back of high oil prices, but later the Russian economy began to stagnate again when oil prices fell, resulting high poverty rates.

Hence Putin's resort to the 'territorial integrity' card...

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 12962 Gender:	Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia! Reply #37 - Mar 6^th, 2023 at 11:18am thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 11:15am: And the US rejected Russia's efforts to join NATO. And for good reason. Russia, with sh!t running down its legs, expected to be treated as a senior partner, equal to the US, within NATO.
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issuevoter

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #38 - Mar 6^th, 2023 at 5:22pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 11:18am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 11:15am:

And the US rejected Russia's efforts to join NATO.

And for good reason. Russia, with sh!t running down its legs, expected to be treated as a senior partner, equal to the US, within NATO.

Who was in charge of the Russian application, and how serious was it?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #39 - Mar 6^th, 2023 at 5:54pm

issuevoter wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 5:22pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 11:18am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 11:15am:

And the US rejected Russia's efforts to join NATO.

And for good reason. Russia, with sh!t running down its legs, expected to be treated as a senior partner, equal to the US, within NATO.

Who was in charge of the Russian application, and how serious was it?

I believe it was seriously considered. Russians don't just think in terms of nationality, they also think in terms of 'sphere of influence', so an eastern European country can be a sovereign state, in Russian terms, but cannot just disregard the Russian sphere of influence.

And if you think it's only a Russian thing, the US has the same sensibility - think the Monroe Doctrine, Cuba and all of South America.

And if you think the US-Cuba thing isn't pervasive, try selling even these on eBay Australia:

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« Last Edit: Mar 6^th, 2023 at 6:00pm by MeisterEckhart »

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Dnarever

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #40 - Mar 6^th, 2023 at 6:39pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 8:50pm:

iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 7:08pm:

A new leader would allow a diplomatic reset, no doubt.

Oh really!

What would the details of a reset look like?

Russians are going to want something out of this and what NATO has planned, with Putin still in charge, is for Russia to annex the pro-Russian south and southeastern Ukrainian oblasts and for the world ultimately to recognise the annexation.

Zelensky has ruled that out, but he is going to have no choice.

Quote:

the pro-Russian south and southeastern Ukrainian oblasts

The problem is that these regions that Russia claims are Pro Russian are not.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #41 - Mar 6^th, 2023 at 7:11pm

Dnarever wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 6:39pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 8:50pm:

iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 7:08pm:

A new leader would allow a diplomatic reset, no doubt.

Oh really!

What would the details of a reset look like?

Russians are going to want something out of this and what NATO has planned, with Putin still in charge, is for Russia to annex the pro-Russian south and southeastern Ukrainian oblasts and for the world ultimately to recognise the annexation.

Zelensky has ruled that out, but he is going to have no choice.

Quote:

the pro-Russian south and southeastern Ukrainian oblasts

The problem is that these regions that Russia claims are Pro Russian are not.

Oh really! Western Ukrainians would disagree with you. They speak Russian and support Russia.

Those oblasts are overwhelmingly pro-Russian and Kyiv will have zero hope of governing them. Under Ukraine's governance, they're destined to be an Eastern European 'Northern Ireland' and would be a birthing place for pro-Russian terrorists, sponsored by Russia, active in Ukraine and across Europe.

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 47794 Gender:	Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia! Reply #42 - Mar 6^th, 2023 at 8:31pm You mean East Ukrainians and I doubt pro russian sentiment is as strong as you think.
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iSteveSteve

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Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia!
Reply #43 - Mar 6^th, 2023 at 8:31pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 7:11pm:

Dnarever wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 6:39pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 8:50pm:

iSteveSteve wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 7:08pm:

A new leader would allow a diplomatic reset, no doubt.

Oh really!

What would the details of a reset look like?

Russians are going to want something out of this and what NATO has planned, with Putin still in charge, is for Russia to annex the pro-Russian south and southeastern Ukrainian oblasts and for the world ultimately to recognise the annexation.

Zelensky has ruled that out, but he is going to have no choice.

Quote:

the pro-Russian south and southeastern Ukrainian oblasts

The problem is that these regions that Russia claims are Pro Russian are not.

Oh really! Western Ukrainians would disagree with you. They speak Russian and support Russia.

Those oblasts are overwhelmingly pro-Russian and Kyiv will have zero hope of governing them. Under Ukraine's governance, they're destined to be an Eastern European 'Northern Ireland' and would be a birthing place for pro-Russian terrorists, sponsored by Russia, active in Ukraine and across Europe.

"Oh, really." Cheesy

How do you explain the stiff resistance of the Ukrainians against "The second most powerful military in the world"? Wink

This is not a divided nation ready for civil war.

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iSteveSteve New Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 47 Gender:	Re: Lavrov Claims Ukraine Started War Against Russia! Reply #44 - Mar 6^th, 2023 at 8:32pm Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 8:31pm: You mean East Ukrainians and I doubt pro russian sentiment is as strong as you think. Agreed.
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