issuevoter wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 10:26am:

Envy, eh! Another old know-nothing wanker with nothing to say.

What would they do if they were just slightly miffed? Bomb only one town and rape only the old women?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 1:55pm:


Nonsense; if Russia had joined NATO (eg in 1990),  why would it have objected to its western neighbours also joining?   

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 2:17pm:


So you are claiming Russia , purportedly wanting to join NATO, would not have understood the purpose of NATO's role as a defensive union. 

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2023 at 12:15pm:


NO. Viet Nam was never a part of the US. But the Ukraine was once a part of Russia. Viet Nam is a socialist/communist country. There are just too many differences between these countries to make this analogy.

Since the 90's, America/NATO has done everything to provoke and contain Russia. NATO/US were warned for many years about their expansion into Eastern Europe, and that the Ukraine was the final line in the sand. As this would completely encircle Russia with American/NATO missiles and bases. Not to mention, surrounded by countries with different political ideologies.

Remember what happened when Cuba decided to acquire missiles from Russia, as a deterrent for any future attacks by the US(the Bay of Pigs)? The US said that these missiles posed an existential threat to its sovereignty. America was willing to start WWIII if Russia didn't remove its missiles(the Cuban Missile Crisis). 

But of course no existential threat to Russian sovereignty exists. Even while the US and NATO member nations, are openly conducting a proxy war against Russia. And, are trying to completely surround Russia with their missiles and bases. Obviously, just another one of American's double standard.

Russia knows that it could never win a conventional war against NATO/US. But by having the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, it doesn't have to. If Putin feels that his country is going to be destroyed by the combine might of 30 NATO and other counties, he might just decide that the nuclear option is his only option left. Do you think Hitler would have used nukes, if he had any??

And, at 5 miles per second(Mach 23), he could reach anywhere in the US in under 30 min. Or, in 10-20 min. if fired from  Russian subs. And, there is nothing anyone can do, once these nukes are fired! Or, the nuclear winter that will follow. Oh, and there are no self-destruct code, once the missiles are fired. Except in the movies!

I'm sure that NATO/US, are willing to fight to the very last Ukrainian. And, I'm sure that this war would have ended many months ago, if not for foreign intervention.   

I'm sure no one is expecting Russia to "just call it a day", and simply follow the instructions of Capitalist ideologues! Or, simply return home and let the capitalists take control over the rest of Russia's border countries. I remember just how irate/ballistic Australia went, at the thought of Papua New Guinea having China's flags in Port Moresby.

We should just mind our own business. Especially, when there is a risk of destroying all of mankind involved. When the first nukes drop, it won't matter anymore who was right, and who was wrong. Will it??      

   

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 3:46pm:

It was not NATO that triggered this. When the Ukrainian people removed Yanukovych, it sent a clear message to Russia that Ukraine was moving away from the Russian sphere of influence.

This was the bridge too far that Russia would not tolerate.

Russia's aim is to reassert itself in the Baltics and as far into former Warsaw Pact countries as it can get, (Serbia and Hungary would not disapprove), but to do that, Russia needs Ukraine to be in line with the Russian sphere of influence.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 4:05pm:


I'm afraid that it is NOT quite that simple. I think that NATO, the EU, and the IMF were the catalyst directly responsible for the series of events, that gave Russia no choice but to attack the Ukraine.

You make it sound like Yanukovych was removed because he was AGAINST the Ukraine joining the EU. He was 100% in favor of the Ukraine joining the EU. So let me add some context. You forget just how  deeply indebted the Ukraine was. In fact, Yanukovych estimated that he would need $160B over three years to make up for the expected lost in trade he would have with Russia. And, to cushion the pain from the reforms that the the EU was demanding. The EU refused. Which left the Ukraine teetering on the brink of bankruptcy.

Yanukovych was hoping that the IMF could help them out, like they did in 2008. When Tymoshenko was the Prime Minister(with a $16.5 billion loan). The IMF also approved a $15.5 billion stand-by program for the Yanukovych government in 2010. After only disbursing about $3.5 billion, the program was frozen in 2011. Because Ukraine failed to meet its conditions. A year later, the program had expired.

The IMF, like the EU, was unwilling to grant the sort of loans Yanukovych wanted under a new program. In fact, they wanted the Ukraine to pay back $3.7B within the next year. This was unacceptable for the Ukraine.

Yanukovych was furious with the IMF. He thought that they were just ignoring his reasonable demands, to lift the tough conditions placed on its earlier help. Such as, increasing the retirement age, and the freezing of pensions and wages. When Oliynyk, Ukraine’s permanent representative for NATO, and others turned to Europe’s officials for help, they “spat on us".

There was also the EU's demand that Yulia Tymoshenko be released from prison. Even though she stated publicly that she would kill Yanukovych for his u-turn on joining the EU. And, the fact that she was the only person who could beat him in the elections. So, that was never going to happen. There was also the matter of Moscow blocking the sales of Ukrainian-produced meat, cheese and some confectionery, and the scrapping of duty-free quotas on steel pipes.

Yanukovych also knew that the EU was NEVER going to offer the Ukraine the prospects of full membership. So, no matter what decision Yanukovych made, he would either be damaged politically, or be damaged economically. So he chose the economic deal with Russia. Which I believe was the right choice. His problem, although he(and his family) vehemently denies any involvement, was ordering the police to kill almost 140 protesters.   
 
Russia has absolutely no interest in rebuilding the Warsaw Pact(or the old USSR). Putin has said so on numerous occasions. Do you know WHY Russia abandoned the Warsaw pact in the first place? And, NATO still continues to lie to Moscow, about limiting its expansion into Eastern Europe.

I think that Russia's only aim, is to protect the security of its sovereignty as a country. To protect itself against any existential threat along its borders. Or, against the REAL threat of foreign countries supplying its enemy with arms, munitions, logistics, etc. I am very surprised at Putin's patience. 30 NATO countries indirectly attacking him, and he's still issuing warnings. At some point these warnings will stop.

I don't really care who is at fault in this conflict. Or, who started it. None of that will offer me any comfort, while I/m in my bunker riding out a nuclear winter! But what I do know, is that if we keep killing more and more Russians(by proxy), and keep bragging about it, we will eventually force Putin's nuclear hand! And then, EVERYBODY LOSES!! 


   

ShellShilo wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 11:34pm:

There's no doubt Russia is responding to its centuries-old perceived existential threat from beyond its western borders.

That Ukrainian resolve has proved to be as solid as it has been, has come as a shock to Putin and a surprise to NATO, I'd bet.

That Russia has proved itself to be a spectacular failure in conventional warfare has also come as a shock to Putin and a surprise to NATO, I'd bet.

Putin isn't so much patient, but he is desperate. A deal that gets him the south and southeast is likely the best he's ever going to get out of this, if NATO gives it the nod, (if it hasn't already).

This entire fiasco, I'd bet, has given the CCP, (with its 'cha bu duo' PLA), cause for alarm that it may also be as spectacular a failure if it attempted an invasion of Taiwan.

philperth2010 wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 10:23am:



Saying NATO US started this is not defending Putin, you batshyte crazy retard.