Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
Debunking the Climate Colossus (Read 766 times)
Belgarion
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 5396
Gender: male
Debunking the Climate Colossus
Mar 9th, 2023 at 12:13pm
 
From The Spectator, an excellent article on the climate change phenomenon by Mark Imisides.

In a previous article, I discussed how climate science has grown from an obscure theory in the late 80s to a worldwide colossus that will soon overtake the oil and gas industry in terms of its size. How is it that despite the scientific case for a climate apocalypse comprehensively collapsing some 20 years ago, we have seen a 16-year-old girl (at the time) being invited to address the United Nations, weeping children marching in our streets, and a federal election outcome in which this issue dominated the political landscape?
Where did we go wrong? And by ‘we’ I’m referring to those of us termed sceptics – people who understand the science, and the house of cards that comprises the notion of Anthropogenic Climate Change.
Mainly, we have fallen into the trap of thinking that just because the evidence is on our side, people will come around to our way of thinking. Or to put it another way, we naively assume that everyone is as interested in evidence as we are.
They are not. The Climate Change industry is a massive global entity with unimaginably large financial and political interests. There is too much at stake for those involved to sully themselves with things like evidence…
The time is ripe for a major political party to take up the cudgels and go to the next election on the ‘cost of living’ platform by tossing every initiative or program with ‘eco’, ‘green’, and particularly ‘renewable’ in the bin. Peter Dutton, I’m looking at you.
How do we do it?
Put simply, we must learn the art of the polemic. The art of rhetoric. We must recognise that there’s no point in having evidence on our side if we don’t know how to use it.
We begin with this proposition. There is no case for reducing our carbon footprint unless all four of these statements are true:
The world is warming.
We are causing it.
It’s a bad thing.
We can do something about it.
No rational person can have any problem with this, and if they do, we need to find out why.
Here’s where we have to decide which of these points we want to contest. Remember, you only have to falsify one of them for the whole thing to collapse like a house of cards.
Most sceptics, in my view, pick the wrong fight. They do this by attempting to prosecute the case based on one of the first two points. This is a mistake.
Here’s why.
Arguments about whether the world is warming revolve around competing graphs: ‘My graph shows it’s warming. If your graph shows it isn’t, then it’s wrong – no it isn’t – yes it is – no it isn’t…’
This argument also looks at Urban Heat Island Effects, and examines manipulation of data by government agencies.
This is a poor approach to take because:
You’re never going to prove your graph is right.
You can be very easily and quickly discredited as a conspiracy theorist (Brian Cox did this to Malcolm Roberts on Q&A a few years ago). People just do not believe that government agencies would manipulate data.
We should not fear a warming world. Records began at the end of the last ice age, so it’s only natural that the world is warming. And the current temperatures are well within historical averages.
As for arguments about whether we are causing the warming, this is even more problematic. The various contributions to global temperatures are extremely complex, involving a deep understanding of atmospheric physics and thermodynamics.
With a PhD in Chemistry, this is much closer to my area of expertise than Joe Public, but I am very quickly out of my depth. I recognise most of the terms and concepts involved, but know just enough to know how little I know.
Sadly, many people on both sides of the debate don’t understand how little they know, nor how complex the subject of atmospheric physics is, and it is nothing short of comical seeing two people debating about a subject of which both of them are blissfully ignorant.
This approach is taken simply because it is so tempting. We can point to the Vladivostok ice cores that prove that CO2 follows temperature changes. We can ask why the cooling period from 1940-75 coincided with the greatest increase in CO2 production the world has ever seen. It’s very tempting. But, I’m sorry to say, it is simply a futile approach.
The bottom line is this – they simply don’t change anyone’s minds – ever. Having seen these arguments used for years, and having used them myself, I cannot point to a single person that has said, ‘Oh yes! I see it now…’ The whole point of arguing, or debating, is to change someone’s mind (including, at times, your own). If that isn’t happening, then it’s futile to continue with the same approach.
I think the reason both these approaches fail that most people do not believe that all these experts, and the government, can be wrong. You say the world isn’t warming? Oh, I’m sure you have the wrong graph. You say that CO2 is not responsible? Oh, I’m sure the government scientists know more than you do.
This then brings us to the third point. Why is a warmer world a bad thing?
This is even more tempting than the first two points, as it’s so easy to prove that a warming world, so far from being a crisis, is actually a good thing. The reason for this is that, unlike with the first two points, they don’t have to look at a complex scientific argument. They just have to look at the weather. Are cyclones and hurricanes increasing? Are droughts increasing? Are flooding events increasing?
Back to top
 

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Voltaire.....(possibly)
 
IP Logged
 
Belgarion
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 5396
Gender: male
Re: Debunking the Climate Colossus
Reply #1 - Mar 9th, 2023 at 12:14pm
 
cont.....Regretfully, it is impossible to get people to even look at this. Even worse, they seem oblivious to the simple concept of cause and effect. We see this in that they simply can’t see that droughts and floods are opposites, and the same cause cannot produce exactly opposite effects. Astonishingly, they somehow think that charts that plot these extreme events are somehow manipulated, even when they come from a primary source such as the BOM, and that there really is a ‘climate crisis’.
Where does that leave us? Well, before we adopt Catweazle’s mantra of ‘nothing works’, there is one more point – point 4 (can we do anything about it?).
Most people will have seen the address of Konstantin Kisin at an Oxford Union debate, where he prosecuted this case to great effect. He pointed out, in simple terms, that as the UK only contributes 2 per cent to the global CO2 budget, anything they did will have negligible effect, and that global CO2 levels will be determined by people in Africa and Asia. He then pointed out that people in these countries ‘didn’t give a sh*t’ about climate change, as all they want to do is feed and clothe their children, and they don’t care how much CO2 that produces.
Finally, he pointed out that Xi Jinping knows that the way to ensure that he isn’t rolled in a revolution, as happened to so many other leaders in former communist regimes, is to ensure prosperity for the Chinese people. And indispensable to that goal is cheap, reliable, power, which is the reason that China is now building lots more coal-fired power plants – in 2021 alone they built 25 GW of capacity – equivalent to 25 x 1000MW plants.
By all accounts, his speech was well-received, with many people turning to his side. The beauty of prosecuting this case, as opposed to the other three, is that people don’t have to look at any evidence. They don’t even have to look at the weather.
The argument is at the same time simple, compelling, and irresistible. The question is this: will we see a major political party with the courage to take it on?
That part remains to be seen. But what is certain is this – the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different outcomes. If, for twenty years we’ve been telling people either that the world isn’t warming, or if it is we aren’t causing it, or if it is warmer but there’s no climate crisis, and not a single person has been persuaded by our arguments, then we have the brains of a tomato if we think anything is going to change.
Konstantin Kisin’s talk, and in particular the way it was received, fill me with hope that I haven’t had in years. It fills me with hope that if the case is prosecuted wisely, the climate change colossus can be brought to a grinding halt, politicians will unashamedly take on energy security as a political mantra, and the notion of climate change will at last be exposed as the unscientific, anti-human, regressive, apocalyptic cult that it is.
Back to top
 

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Voltaire.....(possibly)
 
IP Logged
 
Jovial Monk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Dogs not cats!

Posts: 45888
Gender: male
Re: Debunking the Climate Colossus
Reply #2 - Mar 9th, 2023 at 12:17pm
 
Eemian Period 125K years ago. temperatures a tiny bit higher than now and sea levels 20 metres higher than now.

Is AGW bad? Do you live under 20m above sea level?
Back to top
 

Get the vaxx! 💉💉

If you don’t like abortions ignore them like you do school shootings.
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17330
Gender: male
Re: Debunking the Climate Colossus
Reply #3 - Mar 9th, 2023 at 12:58pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 12:17pm:
Eemian Period 125K years ago. temperatures a tiny bit higher than now and sea levels 20 metres higher than now.

Is AGW bad? Do you live under 20m above sea level?


Is CO2 bad? The Arctic is still not ice free. The Antarctic is not losing ice, except via glacial movement and calving. Bigger glaciers, bigger calves. Roll Eyes

"In the last millions years Earth's climate has alternated between ice ages lasting about 100,000 years and interglacial periods of 10,000 to 15,000 years. The new results from the NEEM ice core drilling project in northwest Greenland, led by the Niels Bohr Institute at the University of Copenhagen show that the climate in Greenland was around 8 degrees C warmer than today during the last interglacial period, the Eemian period, 130,000 to 115,000 thousand years ago."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130123133612.htm

8C is only a tiny bit? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
Back to top
« Last Edit: Mar 9th, 2023 at 1:04pm by lee »  
 
IP Logged
 
Jovial Monk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Dogs not cats!

Posts: 45888
Gender: male
Re: Debunking the Climate Colossus
Reply #4 - Mar 9th, 2023 at 1:13pm
 
Yes. We are warming at the rate of 2°C per century and the rate is picking up.

There are 50,000 years left of this interglacial.
Back to top
 

Get the vaxx! 💉💉

If you don’t like abortions ignore them like you do school shootings.
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17330
Gender: male
Re: Debunking the Climate Colossus
Reply #5 - Mar 9th, 2023 at 2:41pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 1:13pm:
. We are warming at the rate of 2°C per century and the rate is picking up.


Is it picking up? According to whom?

But 400 years or even 300 years there will be no more fossil fuels. And then?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Jovial Monk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Dogs not cats!

Posts: 45888
Gender: male
Re: Debunking the Climate Colossus
Reply #6 - Mar 9th, 2023 at 3:13pm
 
Deforestation? Who knows. Be enough CO2 to continue the warming.

We also may not have to warm the whole extra 8°C either—Antarctica losing over 100Gtons ice a year will see bigger losses as the warming continues. How much longer do the Thwaites and Pine Is glaciers have?

Oh yes, “no danger from the warming”—if only!
Back to top
 

Get the vaxx! 💉💉

If you don’t like abortions ignore them like you do school shootings.
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17330
Gender: male
Re: Debunking the Climate Colossus
Reply #7 - Mar 9th, 2023 at 3:34pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 3:13pm:
Deforestation? Who knows. Be enough CO2 to continue the warming.


Link?

Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 3:13pm:
We also may not have to warm the whole extra 8°C either—Antarctica losing over 100Gtons ice a year will see bigger losses as the warming continues


Again link?

"A new NASA study on the Antarctic Ice Sheet says that an increase in Antarctic snow accumulation that began 10,000 years ago is currently adding enough ice to the continent to outweigh the increased losses from its thinning glaciers."

https://www.antarcticajournal.com/antarctic-ice-sheet-mass-gains-greater-than-lo...

Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 3:13pm:
Oh yes, “no danger from the warming”—if only!



Now all you have to do is prove it. Roll Eyes
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17330
Gender: male
Re: Debunking the Climate Colossus
Reply #8 - Mar 9th, 2023 at 3:41pm
 
But I see you want to merge Cats and Critters and environment. Wanting to spread your board bans? Roll Eyes
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Jovial Monk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Dogs not cats!

Posts: 45888
Gender: male
Re: Debunking the Climate Colossus
Reply #9 - Mar 9th, 2023 at 3:48pm
 
Good old Zwally.

Land ice is being lost and that will increase. Those two glaciers are ever more likely to slide into the sea and the rest of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet after them. I may see this happen in my lifetime and boy I hope it does not happen!
Back to top
 

Get the vaxx! 💉💉

If you don’t like abortions ignore them like you do school shootings.
 
IP Logged
 
Jovial Monk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Dogs not cats!

Posts: 45888
Gender: male
Re: Debunking the Climate Colossus
Reply #10 - Mar 9th, 2023 at 3:55pm
 
Re merging the two boards—I see Bobby is totally lost. Dubyne is proven wrong—no GSM now. Not that a mini ice age would inevitably follow a GSM.

The only posts Bobby makes—off topic crap that belongs either in my MRB or the Finance and Economics MRB. Like I said—he is lost.

Put Bobby in Fringe (and bring along all his ice age/warming/cooling crap) and he can post about any old rubbish he thinks of! He would be happier—his hero Blight might even return!!!

There is nobody else left here with any idea of the environment or ecology. Hence i suggest merging the Environment (minus ice age nonsense) and Critters and Gardens with me as Mod. You get tedious because of your desperate need to pretend change is not happening you might cop a ban from the merged board.
Back to top
 

Get the vaxx! 💉💉

If you don’t like abortions ignore them like you do school shootings.
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17330
Gender: male
Re: Debunking the Climate Colossus
Reply #11 - Mar 9th, 2023 at 4:01pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 3:48pm:
Good old Zwally.



So show me something different about net Antarctic ice. 100Gt is only one side of the equation. Roll Eyes

Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 3:55pm:
You get tedious because of your desperate need to pretend change is not happening you might cop a ban from the merged board.


Nowhere have I said change is not happening. Of course, if you think you have proof, post it. You just don't like that I have the temerity to question you. Roll Eyes
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Jovial Monk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Dogs not cats!

Posts: 45888
Gender: male
Re: Debunking the Climate Colossus
Reply #12 - Mar 9th, 2023 at 4:26pm
 
You got booted from my MRB because you were trying to argue aspects of climate science we had already argued at least once. Even in “Intro to AGW” which was just to set the scene.

Face it, change terrifies you.
Back to top
 

Get the vaxx! 💉💉

If you don’t like abortions ignore them like you do school shootings.
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17330
Gender: male
Re: Debunking the Climate Colossus
Reply #13 - Mar 9th, 2023 at 4:37pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 4:26pm:
You got booted from my MRB because you were trying to argue aspects of climate science we had already argued at least once. Even in “Intro to AGW” which was just to set the scene.


Because you don't like alternative views. And because your arguments were wrong. So tell us how a greenhouse warms the atmosphere when the internal and external CO2 is the same. Roll Eyes

Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 9th, 2023 at 4:26pm:
Face it, change terrifies you.


So tell me when climate has not changed. Roll Eyes

Edit: ...

Notice how global warming started about 1700, BEFORE the industrial revolution, before CO2 increase.

...
Back to top
« Last Edit: Mar 9th, 2023 at 4:44pm by lee »  
 
IP Logged
 
Jovial Monk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Dogs not cats!

Posts: 45888
Gender: male
Re: Debunking the Climate Colossus
Reply #14 - Mar 9th, 2023 at 5:02pm
 
But it is changing ever more rapidly and that scares you.
Back to top
 

Get the vaxx! 💉💉

If you don’t like abortions ignore them like you do school shootings.
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print