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job 'guarantee' scheme (Read 2120 times)
thegreatdivide
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Re: job 'guarantee' scheme
Reply #30 - Mar 16th, 2023 at 9:09am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 16th, 2023 at 7:45am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 15th, 2023 at 10:32pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 15th, 2023 at 8:50pm:
I claim it is a lie because there is no guarantee and there is no consensus.


Listen carefully:

1.  a Federal JG scheme is a policy choice of the Federal government, who guarantees a job for anyone who wants an above-poverty (minimum wage)  job with all the add-ons (sick leave, holiday pay etc)

2.  the consensus refers to the 2-way communication at the local council level, ie matching the local unemployed with the local community's  needs  for non-market-based work. 

Got it?   


Yes. I can see the lie very clearly. You call it a guaranteed job, but like every other job, you have to actually do the work, and to the required standard, or you lose the job.


I agree; the gutters have to be cleaned, or it's back to supported accomodation....

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And where on earth did you get your definition of consensus from? Oh that's right, CCP propaganda, where slaughtering your enemy establishes consensus.


Well... I have described how the JG jobs are created at the local councils - by consensus, if you like, ie by the 2 way process between local community organizations and the local council. If you don't like calling this 'consensus', ok.... call it something else. 

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Why do you keep parroting these lies?


Says one of the most egregious liars on Ozpol, close on the heels of Lisa (btw, have you listened to the video examining Palestine population tranfers in 1946-8?) 

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Are you unaware that Australians have not been taught to swallow communist propaganda unquestioningly?


I am aware  this is how the debate on the JG ends: your blind, sick, 'individual sovereignty' ideology prevents you from honestly replying to all the answers I have given to your every dumb question...
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thegreatdivide
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Re: job 'guarantee' scheme
Reply #31 - Mar 16th, 2023 at 9:11am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 16th, 2023 at 8:12am:
Is consensus just a Chinese Communist Party euphemism for abandoning democracy at the local government level?


Addressed in #30. Communication between local community organizations and the local governing council is  democracy in action. Thanks for highlighting the fact.
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Frank
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Re: job 'guarantee' scheme
Reply #32 - Mar 17th, 2023 at 11:07am
 
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Frank
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Re: job 'guarantee' scheme
Reply #33 - Mar 17th, 2023 at 11:09am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 16th, 2023 at 9:11am:
freediver wrote on Mar 16th, 2023 at 8:12am:
Is consensus just a Chinese Communist Party euphemism for abandoning democracy at the local government level?


Addressed in #30. Communication between local community organizations and the local governing council is  democracy in action. Thanks for highlighting the fact.



Elected (by individuals)  community organisations talking to elected (by individuals) local councils?

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Lisa Jones
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Re: job 'guarantee' scheme
Reply #34 - Mar 17th, 2023 at 11:35am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 16th, 2023 at 9:11am:
freediver wrote on Mar 16th, 2023 at 8:12am:
Is consensus just a Chinese Communist Party euphemism for abandoning democracy at the local government level?


Addressed in #30. Communication between local community organizations and the local governing council is  democracy in action. Thanks for highlighting the fact.


Freediver : What NotSoGreat is lying about THIS time is this :

The local governing council has absolutely nothing to do with democracy. Nothing! It’s in fact a CCP cell group and its council members are CCP elected/appointed and they’re there to enforce CCP policy/propaganda at local level and report back on its progress wrt compliance at local level. It’s in effect Big Brother micro managing dissent and keeping tabs on neighbourhoods to ensure everyone sticks to the CCP agenda.

My Chinese born neighbours have spent hours telling me the truth behind these so called governing councils. From the safety of Australia of course.


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« Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2023 at 11:43am by Lisa Jones »  

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Gnads
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Re: job 'guarantee' scheme
Reply #35 - Mar 17th, 2023 at 12:34pm
 
AusGeoff wrote on Mar 12th, 2023 at 7:35pm:
Mamabulanjin Aboriginal Corporation (MAC) is pursuing a range of
options for Indigenous joint venturers, co-investors and supporters or a
consortium of Indigenous sole owners to buy the Roebuck Seafood
business operating out of Broome.    It would welcome contact with
interested investors and supporters who want to help create sustainable
Indigenous businesses through this enterprise in the Broome area.
MAC is of the view that the purchase of the business is an important
investment opportunity for the Indigenous community.

Broome Fishing Coop.

—Sounds like a good idea.


Grin

Yeah ... like the one on Thursday Island.... govt funded Crayfishing boats.

The had an eager market but couldn't keep up to orders or supply because they would always be tied up in port.

What's that tell you?
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thegreatdivide
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Re: job 'guarantee' scheme
Reply #36 - Mar 17th, 2023 at 1:13pm
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Mar 17th, 2023 at 11:35am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 16th, 2023 at 9:11am:
freediver wrote on Mar 16th, 2023 at 8:12am:
Is consensus just a Chinese Communist Party euphemism for abandoning democracy at the local government level?


Addressed in #30. Communication between local community organizations and the local governing council is  democracy in action. Thanks for highlighting the fact.


Freediver : What NotSoGreat is lying about THIS time is this :

The local governing council has absolutely nothing to do with democracy. Nothing! It’s in fact a CCP cell group...


Dear dumb Lisa, the topic is the role of local government in managing the JG at the local level.
And last time I looked, local councils were part of democracy in Oz. 

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My Chinese born neighbours have spent hours telling me the truth behind these so called governing councils. From the safety of Australia of course. [/size]


Which explains your mal-informed intrusion into the JG debate in Oz, I suppose.
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Frank
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Re: job 'guarantee' scheme
Reply #37 - Mar 19th, 2023 at 4:49pm
 
Arguments for a jobs guarantee
Supporters argue that a jobs guarantee would help stabilise the economy during economic downturns and lift workers out of poverty when they are unable to find jobs that offer enough pay or hours of work.

One of the most popular arguments is that it would improve pay and conditions for all low-paid workers. As Bryce Covert argues:

If the government offered a job to everyone who wants to work, private-sector employees could demand adequate pay, humane schedules, and more generous benefits with less fear of getting fired. In effect, corporate America would be forced to compete with the government for employees—which would put pressure on private employers to provide desirable jobs.

Arguments against a jobs guarantee
The idea has attracted criticism from all sides. In New York magazine Jonathan Chait acknowledges that the jobs guarantee co-opts ‘the conservative themes of self-sufficiency and hard work’ and neutralises the objection that Democratic policies subsidise sloth. However, he argues that the proposal suffers from two serious problems—its cost and the practical difficulty of creating such a large number of jobs.

According to Chait, a program that provided good pay and benefits could quickly expand beyond the target group of unemployed and underemployed workers. The cost of running such a large program would probably mean increased taxes on the middle class and this would put an end to its popularity.

Chait argues that an even bigger problem is ‘is that designing a federal jobs program large enough to usefully employ all applicants is a devilishly complex challenge that none of the proposals currently circulating have worked through.’ If the program funded jobs such as child care that communities rely on, how would it respond when the labour market tightened and workers left for jobs in the private sector? The jobs guarantee would need to be restricted to performing work that the community could afford to do without. Starting with workers and designing jobs that match their skills, experience and availability for work would be a huge challenge.

At the People’s Policy Project, Matt Bruenig makes a similar point. Breunig points to the work of Australian political economy student Hugh Sturgess who wrote his 2016 honours thesis on the topic. In the conservative National Review, Theodore Kupfer references both Bruenig and Sturgess in a piece that dismisses the idea as an attempt by Democratic candidates to shore up their progressive credentials.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_...
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thegreatdivide
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Re: job 'guarantee' scheme
Reply #38 - Mar 20th, 2023 at 12:54pm
 
Frank wrote on Mar 19th, 2023 at 4:49pm:
Arguments for a jobs guarantee
Supporters argue that a jobs guarantee would help stabilise the economy during economic downturns and lift workers out of poverty when they are unable to find jobs that offer enough pay or hours of work.

One of the most popular arguments is that it would improve pay and conditions for all low-paid workers. As Bryce Covert argues:

If the government offered a job to everyone who wants to work, private-sector employees could demand adequate pay, humane schedules, and more generous benefits with less fear of getting fired. In effect, corporate America would be forced to compete with the government for employees—which would put pressure on private employers to provide desirable jobs.


Indeed...or higher pay for jobs which are not so "desirable".

Quote:
Arguments against a jobs guarantee
The idea has attracted criticism from all sides. In New York magazine Jonathan Chait acknowledges that the jobs guarantee co-opts ‘the conservative themes of self-sufficiency and hard work’ and neutralises the objection that Democratic policies subsidise sloth. However, he argues that the proposal suffers from two serious problems—its cost and the practical difficulty of creating such a large number of jobs.


1. "Cost" is not a problem, because a JG is funded by a currency-issuing government which is constrained by resources, not money (by definition). 

2. The practical difficulties of introducing a JG are not large, because the JG is easily implemented at the local council level (where the unemployed are).

Quote:
According to Chait, a program that provided good pay and benefits could quickly expand beyond the target group of unemployed and underemployed workers. The cost of running such a large program would probably mean increased taxes on the middle class and this would put an end to its popularity.


Addressed above: a JG is funded by the currency-issuing government's money, not "taxpayer money". 

Quote:
Chait argues that an even bigger problem is ‘is that designing a federal jobs program large enough to usefully employ all applicants is a devilishly complex challenge that none of the proposals currently circulating have worked through.’


Refuted above, Chait obviously hasn't read the JG literature.


Quote:
If the program funded jobs such as child care that communities rely on, how would it respond when the labour market tightened and workers left for jobs in the private sector?


Regular public service jobs are not JG jobs.

Quote:
The jobs guarantee would need to be restricted to performing work that the community could afford to do without.


The better way to look at this issue is that ALL the nations workers would ALWAYS be employed, with the community being able to decide which work it deems not vital, in any given market condition.

Quote:
Starting with workers and designing jobs that match their skills, experience and availability for work would be a huge challenge.


Addressed above, market forces will decide the number of JG jobs at any given time.

Quote:
At the People’s Policy Project, Matt Bruenig makes a similar point. Breunig points to the work of Australian political economy student Hugh Sturgess who wrote his 2016 honours thesis on the topic. In the conservative National Review, Theodore Kupfer references both Bruenig and Sturgess in a piece that dismisses the idea as an attempt by Democratic candidates to shore up their progressive credentials.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_...


Well of course conservatives - concerned with holding onto their own 'taxpayer money', while not understanding the concept of 'government money' (which doesn't need 'taxpayer money') - aren't known for their "progressive" economic views.
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Jasin
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Re: job 'guarantee' scheme
Reply #39 - Mar 20th, 2023 at 1:23pm
 
I don't think this scheme will work.
I can't even get a job as a Gmod here.  Roll Eyes
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