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We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice? (Read 6581 times)

Bobby.

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #30 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:03pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 11:51am:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 11:43am:

I have no idea what you are ranting about!!!
The Voice is such a vague term that it could mean anything.

Yes, indeed the Nats say the voice won't close the gap, without offering their own policies to close tha gap.

Can you assist the Nats? Gnads disappeared when I asked him for his policies...

Graps offered his 'policy' - little more than what one poster correctly described as a racist rant...

Nothing will close the gap -
we already spend astronomical amounts of money that we
give away to Abbos and all they want is more - and now they want a voice too
when they have already got a voice.
They can speak can't they?
They will never be satisfied and they will only see this appeasement as weakness
to claim more money and close off more areas of land and sea.

« Last Edit: Apr 7^th, 2023 at 4:45pm by Bobby. »

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Bobby.

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #31 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:05pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:01pm:

There is no equation between saying something won't close a gap and offering a solution that will close the gap. If I say that a rock to the head will not close a broken dam, I have no need to offer an alternative.

Round 'em all up - sort out this land claims nonsense once and for all, give 'em a Homeland, Aborassic Park and Gondwanamo Bay, and shift all land claims to one spot that they can enjoy as a self-funding and self-regulated State under the Commonwealth.. get 'em all in one place and sort the good from the bad and point left or right as they pass by the gatekeeper...

Farewell to Australia forever
Farewell to my rum culls as well
Farewell to the well known Old Darwin
Where I used for to cut such a swell

[Chorus]
Singing toorali-orali-addity
Singing toorali-oolari-ai
Singing toorali-ollari-addity
We're bound for Gondwanamo Bay

The Abbos can't run a business and support themselves -
they can only take from the hard work of other people.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #32 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:11pm

Bobby. wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:05pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:01pm:

There is no equation between saying something won't close a gap and offering a solution that will close the gap. If I say that a rock to the head will not close a broken dam, I have no need to offer an alternative.

Round 'em all up - sort out this land claims nonsense once and for all, give 'em a Homeland, Aborassic Park and Gondwanamo Bay, and shift all land claims to one spot that they can enjoy as a self-funding and self-regulated State under the Commonwealth.. get 'em all in one place and sort the good from the bad and point left or right as they pass by the gatekeeper...

Farewell to Australia forever
Farewell to my rum culls as well
Farewell to the well known Old Darwin
Where I used for to cut such a swell

[Chorus]
Singing toorali-orali-addity
Singing toorali-oolari-ai
Singing toorali-ollari-addity
We're bound for Gondwanamo Bay

The Abbos can't run a business and support themselves -
they can only take from the hard work of other people.

Remember that phrase next time you hear about some land claim - "profligate use of land to sustain a nomadic, transient hunter gatherer lifestyle long overtaken by civilisation" - massive land claims under any description have no place in modern society. Even the claimants no longer live that lifestyle Grin

Grin

Grin

Grin

Grin

Grin

It's bullsh

i

t.

You know what I love about his voice nonsense? The way it's brought so many things out into the open for honest discussion for once in a hundred years or so. Albo's plan all along... cunning no?

First we settle the voice insanity - then we move on to all the rest of it.... all the other insanities.. and set them right in a civilised society of legal equals.

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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philperth2010

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #33 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:16pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 11:35am:

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 11:14am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 11:04am:

Native title needs to be properly organised and rules set down for it that actually reflect the law - not just some alcohol haze driven 'empathy' from some dork in a court.

P.S. and national parks are NATIONAL and are held in trust by governments for ALL the people... if that trust is broken then the people have the right to take them back.

You have no idea mate....Remain stupid!!!

Roll Eyes

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Never try to reason the prejudice out of a man. It was not reasoned into him, and cannot be reasoned out.
Sydney Smith (1771 - 1845)

I have every idea. Native title was never properly set down and regulated and is just an ad hoc collection of often unassociated decisions - simply not good enough under the principle of Common Law.

Clearly you have no idea, but your kind of kow-towing yes voter is in the minority.

I give up trying to explain common law to a complete dickheads like you and Bobby....Get mummy to explain it to you idiot!!!

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https://austlii.community/foswiki/ACTLawHbk/OurLegalSystem#:~:text=Common%20law%...

If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)

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Bobby.

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #34 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:19pm

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:16pm:

I give up trying to explain common law to a complete dickheads like you and Bobby....Get mummy to explain it to you idiot!!!

Roll Eyes

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Roll Eyes

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Resorting to Ad Hominem attacks now?

No one can argue against the powerful points I've made in this thread.
It's been a disaster in NZ to give the Maoris a voice and
we've already lost Ayers Rock here - that's enough!

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philperth2010

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #35 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:27pm

Bobby. wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:19pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:16pm:

I give up trying to explain common law to a complete dickheads like you and Bobby....Get mummy to explain it to you idiot!!!

Roll Eyes

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Roll Eyes

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Resorting to Ad Hominem attacks now?

No one can argue against the powerful points I've made in this thread.
It's been a disaster in NZ to give the Maoris a voice and
we've already lost Ayers Rock here - that's enough!

I tore your bullshit to threads mate....Native Title is already established law....The only way to change that is to challenge individual claims in the High Coart or change the Constitution to abolish the rights of Government and Courts to determine laws and enact legislation....You have no idea what you are talking about???

Quote:

Our law comes from parliaments and courts. Parliaments make legislation while courts make common law. Parliaments and courts make both private and public law.

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Link to explain common law....
https://austlii.community/foswiki/ACTLawHbk/OurLegalSystem#:~:text=Common%20law%...

If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)

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thegreatdivide

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #36 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:30pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:01pm:

There is no equation between saying something won't close a gap and offering a solution that will close the gap.

Regardless of your "equation"; surely the onus is on the person saying the voice won't close the gap (in this case, the Nats spokesman), to say what WILL close the gap.

That's the whole point of the Voice: to try to find policies which will close the gap.

Quote:

If I say that a rock to the head will not close a broken dam, I have no need to offer an alternative.

Flawed analogy: there is no relationship ("equation") between a KO and repairing a dam, though a rock correctly placed may close the dam.

Quote:

Round 'em all up - sort out this land claims nonsense once and for all,

Perhaps delusional Western 'individual rights' ideology is at fault; the High Court ought to be supporting the universal right to a home, rather than 'land rights' nonsense.

[There is a confusion of cultures of course; the native culture only recognized tribal lands, but individuals within those lands had free access to all the land, a form of 'communism'].

Quote:

give 'em a Homeland, Aborassic Park and Gondwanamo Bay, and shift all land claims to one spot that they can enjoy as a self-funding and self-regulated State under the Commonwealth.

Apartheid.

Quote:

get 'em all in one place and sort the good from the bad and point left or right as they pass by the gatekeeper...

Racist.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #37 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:33pm

You have a problem with common law being properly codified and organised so that it does the intended job equally for all rather than permitting an ad hoc accumulation of disparate results?

Clearly your idea of law and of common law is distorted. One wrongful decision made on the basis of a previous decision but not the same shows the need for proper codification.... Mabo was a distinct claim where there were clear connections... most modern claims have only an alleged 'spiritual' connection, since none of the claimants actually live there - they live in town and eat Macca's etc - and they scarcely live the transient, land profligate hunter gatherer lifestyle. On that last - that means such mega claims are wrongful from the outset.... history has overtaken them.... sorry to explain that to you. It is nothing but semantic abuse to say that people should have the right to exercise traditional things on a huge swathe - something they were always able to do - and then somehow translate that into absolute ownership by modern rules.

It just doesn't wash - hence the need for a proper reconciliation and ratification of what 'native title' actually means in the modern age.

I know that's too hard for you to follow out there in Housoville with your Houso mouth....

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Bobby.

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #38 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:36pm

Phil,
Quote:

I tore your bullshit to threads mate....Native Title is already established law....The only way to change that is to challenge individual claims in the High Coart or change the Constitution to abolish the rights of Government and Courts to determine laws and enact legislation....You have no idea what you are talking about???

Those laws have been a disaster.
Only Black fellas can go to the top of Ayers Rock -
Black women and all White people are not allowed.
The Abbos are a mob of racist arse holes and you want to give them more power.
It's people like you who will tear our country apart -
you're a traitor and a racist.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #39 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:51pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:33pm:

You have a problem with common law being properly codified and organised so that it does the intended job equally for all rather than permitting an ad hoc accumulation of disparate results?

Yes, when that law oversees entrenched poverty and homelessness, amidst soaring inequality and gross accumulation of wealth by individuals.

Quote:

Clearly your idea of law and of common law is distorted.

How is promotion of collective wellbeing "distorted"?

Quote:

One wrongful decision made on the basis of a previous decision but not the same shows the need for proper codification....

Sounds sensible....

Quote:

Mabo was a distinct claim where there were clear connections...

But anachronistic in the modern world; in today's money-based economy, we need houses to live in, not land with equal rights to roam over ...

Quote:

most modern claims have only an alleged 'spiritual' connection, since none of the claimants actually live there - they live in town and eat Macca's etc - and they scarcely live the transient, land profligate hunter gatherer lifestyle. On that last - that means such mega claims are wrongful from the outset.... history has overtaken them.... sorry to explain that to you.

No need to explain it to me: I want us ALL to move forward into a new world eg, described in the UNUDHR.

Quote:

It is nothing but semantic abuse to say that people should have the right to exercise traditional things on a huge swathe - something they were always able to do - and then somehow translate that into absolute ownership by modern rules.

Correct: a confusion of cultures and anachronistic ideas.

Quote:

It just doesn't wash - hence the need for a proper reconciliation and ratification of what 'native title' actually means in the modern age.

I agree; for me 'native title' should mean exercise of personal agency in a poverty free world.

[I reject claim of mere "assimilation", since what I am seeking requires change of our own 'survival of the fittest' 'culture' as well.

Quote:

I know that's too hard for you to follow out there in Housoville with your Houso mouth....

Refuted above; whose's insisting on maintaining the 'cultural status quo', you or me?

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #40 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:57pm

Not so - the government of the day need only properly codify 'land claims' into proper legislation that properly accords with Law and treats all equally and actually reflects reality.

What part of 'the profligate over-use of land to sustain a nomadic, transient hunter gatherer lifestyle that no longer exists works against any large land claim', do you fail to understand? Just because their ancestors once walked across it (they don't now) doesn't make it theirs and the modern age has overtaken them, so it's time for governments to move properly and close the gaps here.

Yeah - I used to ride me bike a few miles in the heat down to the beach to go surfing.... does that make all that mine for the claiming? Right you lot - off my beach!!

Does anyone today get to walk through a national park and then lay claim to it? Or anywhere else?

Native title was improperly handled by the courts way back and needs to be rectified to meet modern day usage. NOBODY gets to claim a huge swathe of land these days - first it must be available for sale (national parks are not and never will be) and then it must be paid for. Mabo was an isolated situation on a small island where unbroken possession and squatter's rights prevailed.... the rest are bullsh

i

t apart from a few isolated cases, and the rules of 'traditional uses' must be clearly laid out so all can use national parks etc without interference.

I have no problem with natives using our national parks for their traditional pursuits such as yabbying etc and the occasional genuine solstice thing or whatever that never happens every day ... everyone else also has the right to use those national parks..... without interference, let alone threats or violence from ANYONE - and that includes government. Be careful what you ask for... you just might get it.

Wake up.

Dum-da-dum-dum.

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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thegreatdivide

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #41 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 1:18pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:57pm:

Not so - the government of the day need only properly codify 'land claims' into proper legislation that properly accords with Law and treats all equally and actually reflects reality.

I disagree; government ought to codify law which ensures provision of essentials for all.

Quote:

What part of 'the profligate over-use of land to sustain a nomadic, transient hunter gatherer lifestyle that no longer exists works against any large land claim', do you fail to understand? Just because their ancestors once walked across it (they don't now) doesn't make it theirs and the modern age has overtaken them, so it's time for governments to move properly and close the gaps here.

I agree.

Quote:

Native title was improperly handled by the courts way back and needs to be rectified to meet modern day usage.

I agree, yet we are also stuck with delusional Western "individual rights" ideology, meaning survival of the fittest outcomes are protected by law.

Quote:

NOBODY gets to claim a huge swathe of land these days -

Didn't a certain billionaire (then: Skase?)buy an island some time ago?

Quote:

first it must be available for sale (national parks are not and never will be) and then it must be paid for. Mabo was an isolated situation on a small island where unbroken possession and squatter's rights prevailed.... the rest are bullsh

i

t apart from a few isolated cases, and the rules of 'traditional uses' must be clearly laid out so all can use national parks etc without interference.

Yes.

Quote:

I have no problem with natives using our national parks for their traditional pursuits such as yabbying etc and the occasional genuine solstice thing or whatever that never happens every day ... everyone else also has the right to use those national parks..... without interference, let alone threats or violence from ANYONE - and that includes government. Be careful what you ask for... you just might get it.

Wake up.

Well, you are entitled to address others as well as me...

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Gnads

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #42 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 1:22pm

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 10:02am:

Gnads wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 9:34am:

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 9:30am:

Gnads wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 9:18am:

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 9:02am:

There is already Native Title without the voice....Aboriginal people were granted land rights by the High Court in 1993....Freediver thinks Native Title is a joke and ignores it's implications and the rights of Indiginous Australian's by posting irrelivant bullshit that has no foundation in law....The Voice will have no impact on Aboriginal people's rights to Native Title which already exists....More lies and scare mongering by people who have no idea how the law works....Why do people feel it neccassary to post bullshit in opposition to the voice???

Quote:

The NTA (Native Title Act) was passed in 1993. It established a process for claiming and recognising native title lands and waters in Australia. The NTA aims to balance Indigenous and non-Indigenous peoples’ rights to land, and sets out how native title rights and interests fit within Australian law.

Native title rights cannot be claimed in relation to minerals, gas or petroleum under Australian law. Native title in tidal and sea areas can only be of a non-exclusive nature, as exclusive native title is considered inconsistent with other common law rights regarding marine access and navigation.

A full description of Native Title is supplied in the links below....Indiginous people have always had rights to certain lands in Australia and nothing will ever change that with or without the voice....Educate yourself Bobby and stop being ignorant about the things you claim which are not true!!!

Huh

Huh

Huh

Huh

https://nativetitle.org.au/learn/native-title-and-pbcs/native-title-rights-and-i...

http://www.nntt.gov.au/Information%20Publications/Native%20Title%20an%20overview...

Why do people feel it neccessary to post bullshit in support of the voice???

Noel Pearson, Marcia Langton, Anthony Albanese??? for 3 who are playing the emotional blackmail & vilifying anyone who opposes it.

Pearson -"I had a dream last night.... a troubling dream ... where judas Peter Dutton was acting like an undertaker burying Aboriginal people."

Albanese - "You should take the opportunity & do the right thing so you can feel good about yourself."

Then stole Pearsons line about Dutton being an undertaker.

Marcia Langton says - Dutton lied about the voice.

So anyone who opposes the voice because of the failure of activists & govt to lay everything out on the table about how it will work, who will be on it & what powers it will have is a liar? Roll Eyes

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Linda Burnie gets up in Parliament & says Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islanders do not have a voice to Parliament ......

she should resign immediately because she's not doing her job as Minister for Indigenous Australians.

Baaaaa baaaaa you mindless sheep ..... wanting to amend the Constitution based on colour/race.

What does your bullshit racist rant have to do with established law....Native Title already exists....I was pointing out to Bobby his characterization of the voice is incorrect and has no basis in fact or law....At least if you are arguing against the Voice you can support your arguments with facts not bullshit....I agree there is not enough detail about the Voice and what it contains for people to make an informed decision and that is a failure of the Albanese Government to provide enough detail people can understand....Opponents like Bobby are exploiting the lack of detail to missrepresent the facts and make claims that are obviously bullshit....Bobby is simply wrong as usual!!!

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The Voice has SFA to do with Native title.

There is more to lose with a race based voice to parliament enshrined in the Constitution which represents all Australians.

So who's having a rant?

Exactly....The Voice has SFA to do with Native title so why is Bobby posting bullshit....You are actually supporting my argument with your rant mate!!!

Only a very small part. Roll Eyes

Roll Eyes

"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Gnads

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #43 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 1:26pm

Bobby. wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 10:31am:

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 9:30am:

What does your bullshit racist rant have to do with established law....Native Title already exists....I was pointing out to Bobby his characterization of the voice is incorrect and has no basis in fact or law....At least if you are arguing against the Voice you can support your arguments with facts not bullshit....I agree there is not enough detail about the Voice and what it contains for people to make an informed decision and that is a failure of the Albanese Government to provide enough detail people can understand....Opponents like Bobby are exploiting the lack of detail to missrepresent the facts and make claims that are obviously bullshit....Bobby is simply wrong as usual!!!

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dear Phil,
The Voice is basically a blank cheque -
the same will happen here as it did in NZ
where the Maoris invented new concepts such as Mana Whenua
to take rights away from New Zealanders -
next thing we'll be banned from certain beaches, national parks, ocean areas, rivers, mountains, hills
and whatever else the Abbos can think up.
I'm going to vote No and I advise you to do the same.

Losing Ayers Rock was already too much -
you give them an inch and they take a mile.

They took Mt Eden in Auckland - people never saw that coming either.

Booby it's not the next to happen.... that is already happening now!!! .... several examples of it have been posted across this forum before.

"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Gnads

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #44 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 1:33pm

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 11:09am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 10:58am:

Any law that gives special privileges to one group is not a legal law under our system of government based on the rules of law.

Care to site this law that Governments cannot make laws concering the rights and privileges of Indiginous people or any other Australian people....Native Title is based on the rules of law???

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They can make laws .... but they don't need to nor should they entrench a body into the constitution to do that. Grin

Grin

And the Native Title Act & claims granted are causing riffs between Aboriginals & non-aboriginals where National Parks & beach access & foreshores in populous areas are closed off to non-Aboriginal residents & visitors.

The Voice will only go on to worsen that sort of occurrence ..... it will be divisive & racially discriminative.

"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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