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We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice? (Read 6609 times)

Gnads

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #45 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 1:34pm

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 11:14am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 11:04am:

Native title needs to be properly organised and rules set down for it that actually reflect the law - not just some alcohol haze driven 'empathy' from some dork in a court.

P.S. and national parks are NATIONAL and are held in trust by governments for ALL the people... if that trust is broken then the people have the right to take them back.

You have no idea mate....Remain stupid!!!

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Never try to reason the prejudice out of a man. It was not reasoned into him, and cannot be reasoned out.
Sydney Smith (1771 - 1845)

Nahhhh ... you're the one with no idea dickhead.

"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Gnads

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #46 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 1:43pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 11:41am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 10:58am:

NO! So why is this given to one minority group here? Because they cry louder, are the only ones who even get a say, and have the ear of the supplicant and stupid media?[

I asked Gnads and he disappeared; what is his proposal to close the gap...he might assist the Nats in their concerns that a voice won't close the gap.

Quote:

The spiritual aspects of all of those things are for everyone - not just the province of a small group. This is nothing more than an example of the profligate use of land to sustain a transient hunter gatherer society that has long been overturned by civilisation.

Yes, 'culture' dies hard: some Christians want to insist on certain perceived "rights" to discriminate.

Quote:

Civil war is coming if the stupid politicians and their bum chums keep on down this path.

It is interesting the High Court confirmed 'land rights', instead of confirming the right of everyone to a home.

Disappeared ? FFS you wanker I don't have to sit here all day responding to you repetitious shyte about a GAP.

As I've said to you before the gap is the vacuum between your ears.

In 60 years & hundreds of billions of dollars spent ... people/experts ... all on a higher pay grade than I've ever been on have been working out schemes & programs, having enquiries, implementing strategies....... that to this day still fail to remedy the situation.

I can see that it should be a 2 way street ... but it never is .... the luvvies & bleeding hearts won't allow it ....

they want to preserve Aboriginals as primitives in a National Zoo.

Self loathing, guilt tripping, patronising, mollycoddling & for ever pandering & making excuses.

You go close to fitting that bill.

"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #47 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 1:46pm

Care to cite that law?

It's the underpinning of ALL law that in order to be a proper law it must apply equally to all under our system of law and thus our constitution as derived from Magna Carta (as revised over the years). equal treatment under the law is a basic requirement of valid law and is part of the oath of office of a judge etc... that they will treat all equally under the law....

It follows therefrom that law/legislation/regulation itself must abide by the rule of law or not be valid under law.

I know that's hard for some to understand.... put simply no government of any kind and no court can create a law or interpretation of such that does not treat all equally. Land claims/native title do not treat all equally as required, and again, what would be your reaction if that was applied to a strip mining conglomerate and not your pet natives? Still feel the same? Special interest group should always prevail in your idea of law?

Now then - MY land claims...... Australian Hotel Inverell anyone? Family land claim... along with massive swathes of New England and Hunter regions and so forth and down the Orana, some of Melbadishu etc....... you can keep the hot and dry stuff ...

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Gnads

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #48 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 1:46pm

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:27pm:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:19pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:16pm:

I give up trying to explain common law to a complete dickheads like you and Bobby....Get mummy to explain it to you idiot!!!

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Resorting to Ad Hominem attacks now?

No one can argue against the powerful points I've made in this thread.
It's been a disaster in NZ to give the Maoris a voice and
we've already lost Ayers Rock here - that's enough!

I tore your bullshit to threads mate....Native Title is already established law....The only way to change that is to challenge individual claims in the High Coart or change the Constitution to abolish the rights of Government and Courts to determine laws and enact legislation....You have no idea what you are talking about???

Quote:

Our law comes from parliaments and courts. Parliaments make legislation while courts make common law. Parliaments and courts make both private and public law.

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Link to explain common law....
https://austlii.community/foswiki/ACTLawHbk/OurLegalSystem#:~:text=Common%20law%...

You couldn't shred a kleenex tissue ... you wanker self praise is no recommendation.

"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #49 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 1:50pm

Try again - it is the duty and responsibility of government to properly codify and define what 'land rights' actually mean and to apply and enforce those so that they apply to reality and to all equally as required by law. You cannot escape that.

Until government actually does that all land claims remain in limbo..... but you wouldn't know that....

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Gnads

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #50 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 1:53pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:30pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:01pm:

There is no equation between saying something won't close a gap and offering a solution that will close the gap.

Regardless of your "equation"; surely the onus is on the person saying the voice won't close the gap (in this case, the Nats spokesman), to say what WILL close the gap.

That's the whole point of the Voice: to try to find policies which will close the gap.

Quote:

If I say that a rock to the head will not close a broken dam, I have no need to offer an alternative.

Flawed analogy: there is no relationship ("equation") between a KO and repairing a dam, though a rock correctly placed may close the dam.

Quote:

Round 'em all up - sort out this land claims nonsense once and for all,

Perhaps delusional Western 'individual rights' ideology is at fault; the High Court ought to be supporting the universal right to a home, rather than 'land rights' nonsense.

[There is a confusion of cultures of course; the native culture only recognized tribal lands, but individuals within those lands had free access to all the land, a form of 'communism'].

Quote:

give 'em a Homeland, Aborassic Park and Gondwanamo Bay, and shift all land claims to one spot that they can enjoy as a self-funding and self-regulated State under the Commonwealth.

Apartheid.

Quote:

get 'em all in one place and sort the good from the bad and point left or right as they pass by the gatekeeper...

Racist.

Racist ... that's bs.

Crucifixion ... yes... good ... out the door line on the left one cross each.

"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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thegreatdivide

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #51 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 2:08pm

Gnads wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 1:43pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 11:41am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 10:58am:

NO! So why is this given to one minority group here? Because they cry louder, are the only ones who even get a say, and have the ear of the supplicant and stupid media?[

I asked Gnads and he disappeared; what is his proposal to close the gap...he might assist the Nats in their concerns that a voice won't close the gap.

Quote:

The spiritual aspects of all of those things are for everyone - not just the province of a small group. This is nothing more than an example of the profligate use of land to sustain a transient hunter gatherer society that has long been overturned by civilisation.

Yes, 'culture' dies hard: some Christians want to insist on certain perceived "rights" to discriminate.

Quote:

Civil war is coming if the stupid politicians and their bum chums keep on down this path.

It is interesting the High Court confirmed 'land rights', instead of confirming the right of everyone to a home.

Disappeared ? FFS you wanker I don't have to sit here all day responding to you repetitious shyte about a GAP.

..

proving yourself to be the ultimate example of a "deplorable": even the Nats are insisting the Yes supporters explain how the voice will close the gap.

Quote:

As I've said to you before the gap is the vacuum between your ears.

In 60 years & hundreds of billions of dollars spent ... people/experts ... all on a higher pay grade than I've ever been on have been working out schemes & programs, having enquiries, implementing strategies....... that to this day still fail to remedy the situation.

I can see that it should be a 2 way street ...

Wow.....getting that out of you - is like extracting water from a stone...

Quote:

but it never is .... the luvvies & bleeding hearts won't allow it ....

Rather the ideologues like John Howard who cancelled the CDEP won't allow it.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14427591.1993.9686379

The success of CDEP is dependent on these organisations which provide culturally appropriate employment, which includes the CDEP scheme. A recent review (note: in 2011) of the CDEP scheme indicated that 71% of Aboriginal communities surveyed considered that CDEP was helpful in meeting the goals of the community and 82% considered that community members were better off under the scheme

Quote:

they want to preserve Aboriginals as primitives in a National Zoo.

There will always be some cultural warriors in any culture.

Quote:

Self loathing, guilt tripping, patronising, mollycoddling & for ever pandering & making excuses.

..and John Howard's deplorable neoliberal market ideology.

Quote:

You go close to fitting that bill.

feel free to show how I fit that bill (even closely).

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philperth2010

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #52 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 2:27pm

Gnads wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 1:46pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:27pm:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:19pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 12:16pm:

I give up trying to explain common law to a complete dickheads like you and Bobby....Get mummy to explain it to you idiot!!!

Roll Eyes

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Resorting to Ad Hominem attacks now?

No one can argue against the powerful points I've made in this thread.
It's been a disaster in NZ to give the Maoris a voice and
we've already lost Ayers Rock here - that's enough!

I tore your bullshit to threads mate....Native Title is already established law....The only way to change that is to challenge individual claims in the High Coart or change the Constitution to abolish the rights of Government and Courts to determine laws and enact legislation....You have no idea what you are talking about???

Quote:

Our law comes from parliaments and courts. Parliaments make legislation while courts make common law. Parliaments and courts make both private and public law.

Roll Eyes

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Link to explain common law....
https://austlii.community/foswiki/ACTLawHbk/OurLegalSystem#:~:text=Common%20law%...

You couldn't shred a kleenex tissue ... you wanker self praise is no recommendation.

Is that all you have to offer any debate....Why is it self praise to point out basic facts to imbeciles....I am only tying to inform the debate and educate dickheads like you!!!

If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)

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philperth2010

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #53 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 2:38pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 1:50pm:

Try again - it is the duty and responsibility of government to properly codify and define what 'land rights' actually mean and to apply and enforce those so that they apply to reality and to all equally as required by law. You cannot escape that.

Until government actually does that all land claims remain in limbo..... but you wouldn't know that....

Land Rights and Native Title are already established and enshrined in common law according to Constitutional powers given to Judges and Courts across Australia....The courts have the power to make decisions on Indiginous rights....Which native title claims remain in limbo mate....Can you support that claim???

Quote:

Land rights usually comprise a grant of freehold or perpetual lease title to Indigenous Australians. By contrast, native title arises as a result of recognition, under Australian common law, of pre-existing Indigenous rights and interests according to traditional laws and customs.

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https://www.ag.gov.au/legal-system/native-title#:~:text=Native%20title%20and%20l...

If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #54 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 3:08pm

You clearly don't know what codify means - a loose agglomeration of findings does not make a reliable and consistent body - therefore it is far too wide open to all kinds of claims based on very little or even nothing - and so must be properly codified and pass into legislation and have a set of rules and guidelines installed.

Furthermore its legitimacy must be tested under the new laws of the land that do not permit claiming land simply by saying your ancestors walked across it... at some point they had to buy it to own it... that is the law. Gifting of a house block is one thing - there is no underpinning for gifting massive swathes of land on the basis of past use by people no longer here and especially when that use was - as said - profligate and now long out-dated and not in use.

At the moment 'native title' is a ramshackle collection - not a contiguous body - and it must be put to the tests of reason and simple reality in the modern world and its limitations clearly laid down.

None of the coastal Aborigines, for example, go out to hunt a roo for dinner in the traditional way. Some small groups wandering the vast spaces Outback may do so, so that traditional usage continues and has never been interfered with. What also must not be interfered with is the free right of all others to use of public land.

Your not wanting that and wanting to restrict access to a chosen few is not sufficient reason to block anyone's usage.

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Bobby.

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #55 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 4:44pm

Gnads wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 1:26pm:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 10:31am:

philperth2010 wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 9:30am:

What does your bullshit racist rant have to do with established law....Native Title already exists....I was pointing out to Bobby his characterization of the voice is incorrect and has no basis in fact or law....At least if you are arguing against the Voice you can support your arguments with facts not bullshit....I agree there is not enough detail about the Voice and what it contains for people to make an informed decision and that is a failure of the Albanese Government to provide enough detail people can understand....Opponents like Bobby are exploiting the lack of detail to missrepresent the facts and make claims that are obviously bullshit....Bobby is simply wrong as usual!!!

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dear Phil,
The Voice is basically a blank cheque -
the same will happen here as it did in NZ
where the Maoris invented new concepts such as Mana Whenua
to take rights away from New Zealanders -
next thing we'll be banned from certain beaches, national parks, ocean areas, rivers, mountains, hills
and whatever else the Abbos can think up.
I'm going to vote No and I advise you to do the same.

Losing Ayers Rock was already too much -
you give them an inch and they take a mile.

They took Mt Eden in Auckland - people never saw that coming either.

Bobby it's not the next to happen.... that is already happening now!!! .... several examples of it have been posted across this forum before.

Give them nothing and take back what they've already taken.

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Bobby.

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #56 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 4:46pm

Phil,
Quote:

I tore your bullshit to threads mate....Native Title is already established law....The only way to change that is to challenge individual claims in the High Coart or change the Constitution to abolish the rights of Government and Courts to determine laws and enact legislation....You have no idea what you are talking about???

Those laws have been a disaster.
Only Black fellas can go to the top of Ayers Rock -
Black women and all White people are not allowed.
The Abbos are a mob of racist arse holes and you want to give them more power.
It's people like you who will tear our country apart -
you're a traitor and a racist.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #57 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 4:50pm

At the very least with this beachfront bullsh

i

t they must be forced to give a decent right of way and not block people from using the beaches.

Again - all claims must be carefully scrutinised and it looks like a real overhaul of the way this is done must take place, so that ALL stakeholders get a fair say and a fair resolution. We all know what this is about - be as obstructive and nasty as you can be while the stupid white person is silly enough to let them get away with it.

This has to stop - those days are gone and it's time they stepped into the future.

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #58 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 5:01pm

"The Constitution is the document which sets out the bases on which Australian society is regulated by determining the scope of permissible laws."

For the slow - that 'permissible' is the meat here... it shows what I have said over and over here - that the making of laws itself if bound by rules - the primary of which is the absolute requirement that all must be treated equally under any law.

Laws that do not abide by that simple requirement are not permissible... even though they may have been passed into legislation, regulation or common usage, and it is therefore the absolute and inalienable right of the people aggrieved by such misuse of law to overturn and/or overthrow it.

Such a process should be simple and straight forward, and involve a simple rendition of facts - not some outlandish and costly (so that the ordinary punter can never challenge wrong by the well-off or the government) legal challenge through a court. A properly constituted tribunal and a fee of $25 should suffice... same as with defamation etc, so as to allow access to justice by the ordinary person.

One hearing of a non-permissible law in action should suffice for it to be struck down.

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Bobby.

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Re: We lost Uluru - more to lose with a voice?
Reply #59 - Apr 7^th, 2023 at 5:02pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 7^th, 2023 at 4:50pm:

At the very least with this beachfront bullsh

i

t they must be forced to give a decent right of way and not block people from using the beaches.

Again - all claims must be carefully scrutinised and it looks like a real overhaul of the way this is done must take place, so that ALL stakeholders get a fair say and a fair resolution. We all know what this is about - be as obstructive and nasty as you can be while the stupid white person is silly enough to let them get away with it.

This has to stop - those days are gone and it's time they stepped into the future.

see this -

If you vote NO to "The Voice" you are a racist bigot! Where have we heard this before?

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