Australian Politics Forum - Older Car Parks Could Collapse Under EV's Weight?

Bobby.

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Re: Older Car Parks Could Collapse Under EV's Weight?
Reply #15 - Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:09pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:06pm:

Crikey I thought he may have been asleep. I was hoping to hear from him tomorrow morning.

Ok let me see if I can take a screenshot of what he’s texting me. If not then I’ll have to copy and paste his stuff over here. Will that be ok Bobby?

Wouldn't it be easier to copy and paste the text?

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Older Car Parks Could Collapse Under EV's Weight?
Reply #16 - Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:18pm

Bobby. wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:09pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:06pm:

Crikey I thought he may have been asleep. I was hoping to hear from him tomorrow morning.

Ok let me see if I can take a screenshot of what he’s texting me. If not then I’ll have to copy and paste his stuff over here. Will that be ok Bobby?

Wouldn't it be easier to copy and paste the text?

Conversation still going .....

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Older Car Parks Could Collapse Under EV's Weight?
Reply #17 - Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:34pm

Sorry...the conversation is still continuing/taking a few turns. I’ll explain why later.

But essentially he’s identified a few issues (I hammered him on a few things with the article). We’ve now covered these issues in enough detail to generate a letter outlining our concerns to our newly elected NSW Premier Chris Minns. That letter will essentially explain the mistakes made in the article and will highlight the health and safety concerns for NSW residents esp Sydney (given it’s so heavily populated).

And oh great he’s just asked me to draft THAT letter for him to then check over and sign off. 😐

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« Last Edit: Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:39pm by Lisa Jones »

If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

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Bobby.

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Re: Older Car Parks Could Collapse Under EV's Weight?
Reply #18 - Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:34pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:18pm:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:09pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:06pm:

Crikey I thought he may have been asleep. I was hoping to hear from him tomorrow morning.

Ok let me see if I can take a screenshot of what he’s texting me. If not then I’ll have to copy and paste his stuff over here. Will that be ok Bobby?

Wouldn't it be easier to copy and paste the text?

Conversation still going .....

I know he'll agree with my assessment.

What is needed are proper yearly inspections for cracks.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Older Car Parks Could Collapse Under EV's Weight?
Reply #19 - Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:51pm

Bobby. wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:34pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:18pm:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:09pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:06pm:

Crikey I thought he may have been asleep. I was hoping to hear from him tomorrow morning.

Ok let me see if I can take a screenshot of what he’s texting me. If not then I’ll have to copy and paste his stuff over here. Will that be ok Bobby?

Wouldn't it be easier to copy and paste the text?

Conversation still going .....

I know he'll agree with my assessment.

What is needed are proper yearly inspections for cracks.

Sorry Bobby he just indicated yes BUT no ..it won’t be enough.

Why? We both realised as we were chatting that there is no 1 governing body to regulate AND monitor the procedure ie there’s no co ordinated approach to cover different multi level car parks (they differ in age and size AND only some are owned by Council ... many are privately owned).

Look all I was hoping to hear was this : it’s safe for mums and kids to go shopping, park our SUV’s and come back to said parked SUV with kids plus shopping and then come home safely. I’m not asking for too much...yeah?

Well apparently he reckons I am. Why? Because this happened a few days ago (I had no idea about it until he texted me the link)

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna80454

Note : This is just 1 of the many mistakes made by the writer of the article. He’s also made other mistakes (I won’t list them all because the bottom line is this : despite ANY mistake made by the author ... valid public health and safety issue has been raised. And that safety issue is what needs to be addressed.

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« Last Edit: Apr 23^rd, 2023 at 12:04am by Lisa Jones »

6F637571-1F36-4805-9FE1-1C920910DD42.jpeg (108 KB | 5 )

If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 103167 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Older Car Parks Could Collapse Under EV's Weight? Reply #20 - Apr 23^rd, 2023 at 12:02am Thanks Lisa, had it been regularly inspected for cracks?
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Older Car Parks Could Collapse Under EV's Weight?
Reply #21 - Apr 23^rd, 2023 at 12:35am

Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:34pm:

Sorry...the conversation is still continuing/taking a few turns. I’ll explain why later.

But essentially he’s identified a few issues (I hammered him on a few things with the article). We’ve now covered these issues in enough detail to generate a letter outlining our concerns to our newly elected NSW Premier Chris Minns. That letter will essentially explain the mistakes made in the article and will highlight the health and safety concerns for NSW residents esp Sydney (given it’s so heavily populated).

What Factor of Safety (fos) do they use for car park design?

I thought they use FOS 4-5 or even higher for stuff like this keep in mind higher FOS means greater material cost more expensive to build

If the breaking load is 100 tons (engineers use kilo-mega giga Newtons)
FOS 5 = 20 tons max working load
FOS 4= 25 tons mwl
FOS 3= 33.3 tons mwl
FOS 2 = 50 ton mwl

Concrete is really good in compression no good in tension they put steel in concrete for tensile loads. The columns should be OK the slab where cars park has top side in compression with bottom of slab in tension so failures from heavier cars is more likely in slab than columns.

Since they should have FOS around 5 or higher i doubt doubling of cars weight will anything to worry about. If it was desinged with FOS 3 then double the weight of cars will reduce FOS below 2 which could be a problem. I have never done any engineering with concrete structures so not sure on what FOS they use.

Problems come with shonky people who don't follow the design or use substandard products. If the steel used is thinner it won't be as strong if it's thicker it costs more there has to be an idiot factor with some designs.

Concrete cancer is the steel rusting inside the concrete which is why you get rust stains on concrete this weakens structure by unknown amount.

His AS1170 is for wind loading which can be significant for tall buildings not sure how useful that is for 2-5 story car parks that are open walled. Strong winds can have loads up to 50 lbs square foot which are huge loads on tall buildings.

I doubt many can afford expensive electric cars so i wouldn't be worried about car parks unless building is really old.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Older Car Parks Could Collapse Under EV's Weight?
Reply #22 - Apr 23^rd, 2023 at 12:50am

Bobby. wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2023 at 12:02am:

Thanks Lisa,
had it been regularly inspected for cracks?

Bobby....he told me the REAL issue isn’t the regular inspection for cracks. It’s more complicated than that. Why? Well it involves identifying who has liability, duty of care etc. And these responsibilities identify/affect insurers and the huge premiums they charge because they may well end up being liable.

What needs to be articulated is :

Who is responsible in ensuring a thorough and regular inspection takes place (and not just for cracks).

Note : the word “thorough” isn’t clear enough. Neither is the word “regular”. These terms need to be clearer.

I guess I feel that multi storey car parks need to be considered and treated beyond existing current statutory safety provisions.

There needs to be specific legislation covering these sorts of structures especially in view of emerging and changing vehicle technology as well as the types of cars we’re now driving which is causing these structures to take on more and more stress.

Oh and I forgot to tell you this Bobby: he mentioned the SUVs which we women currently drive around all the time with kids and shopping etc in them. Well he’s supplied me with comparison graphs which prove THESE SUVs are getting heavier too and now many are even heavier than EV’s😔🥺😩

So in essence ... the writer of the article in the OP has made a few mistakes which need to be acknowledged and corrected. Even so the overall message in the article is still relevant.

I’d like to thank whoever raised this topic (I think it was AusGeoff) and for Bobby who has allowed me to post so freely in his sub forum tonight.

(I had better draft the letter required in point form based on our texts/notes and the article in the OP of this topic so I had better log off and do that). Night.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Older Car Parks Could Collapse Under EV's Weight?
Reply #23 - Apr 23^rd, 2023 at 12:55am

Baronvonrort wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2023 at 12:35am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:34pm:

Sorry...the conversation is still continuing/taking a few turns. I’ll explain why later.

But essentially he’s identified a few issues (I hammered him on a few things with the article). We’ve now covered these issues in enough detail to generate a letter outlining our concerns to our newly elected NSW Premier Chris Minns. That letter will essentially explain the mistakes made in the article and will highlight the health and safety concerns for NSW residents esp Sydney (given it’s so heavily populated).

What Factor of Safety (fos) do they use for car park design?

I thought they use FOS 4-5 or even higher for stuff like this keep in mind higher FOS means greater material cost more expensive to build

If the breaking load is 100 tons (engineers use kilo-mega giga Newtons)
FOS 5 = 20 tons max working load
FOS 4= 25 tons mwl
FOS 3= 33.3 tons mwl
FOS 2 = 50 ton mwl

Concrete is really good in compression no good in tension they put steel in concrete for tensile loads. The columns should be OK the slab where cars park has top side in compression with bottom of slab in tension so failures from heavier cars is more likely in slab than columns.

Since they should have FOS around 5 or higher i doubt doubling of cars weight will anything to worry about. If it was desinged with FOS 3 then double the weight of cars will reduce FOS below 2 which could be a problem. I have never done any engineering with concrete structures so not sure on what FOS they use.

Problems come with shonky people who don't follow the design or use substandard products. If the steel used is thinner it won't be as strong if it's thicker it costs more there has to be an idiot factor with some designs.

Concrete cancer is the steel rusting inside the concrete which is why you get rust stains on concrete this weakens structure by unknown amount.

His AS1170 is for wind loading which can be significant for tall buildings not sure how useful that is for 2-5 story car parks that are open walled. Strong winds can have loads up to 50 lbs square foot which are huge loads on tall buildings.

I doubt many can afford expensive electric cars so i wouldn't be worried about car parks unless building is really old.

Oh hello Baron! Just caught your comment as I was logging off!

FOS?? I’ll have to ask him tomorrow morning about that.

Re heavy cars ....SUVs are getting heavier ...more heavier than EV’s. That’s another mistake in the article of the OP.

He also pointed out this mistake in the article of the OP. 👇

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« Last Edit: Apr 23^rd, 2023 at 1:01am by Lisa Jones »

D57D7941-44DA-4C83-8133-641C04843E42.jpeg (189 KB | 6 )

If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Older Car Parks Could Collapse Under EV's Weight?
Reply #24 - Apr 23^rd, 2023 at 1:09am

Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2023 at 12:55am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2023 at 12:35am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2023 at 11:34pm:

Sorry...the conversation is still continuing/taking a few turns. I’ll explain why later.

But essentially he’s identified a few issues (I hammered him on a few things with the article). We’ve now covered these issues in enough detail to generate a letter outlining our concerns to our newly elected NSW Premier Chris Minns. That letter will essentially explain the mistakes made in the article and will highlight the health and safety concerns for NSW residents esp Sydney (given it’s so heavily populated).

What Factor of Safety (fos) do they use for car park design?

I thought they use FOS 4-5 or even higher for stuff like this keep in mind higher FOS means greater material cost more expensive to build

If the breaking load is 100 tons (engineers use kilo-mega giga Newtons)
FOS 5 = 20 tons max working load
FOS 4= 25 tons mwl
FOS 3= 33.3 tons mwl
FOS 2 = 50 ton mwl

Concrete is really good in compression no good in tension they put steel in concrete for tensile loads. The columns should be OK the slab where cars park has top side in compression with bottom of slab in tension so failures from heavier cars is more likely in slab than columns.

Since they should have FOS around 5 or higher i doubt doubling of cars weight will anything to worry about. If it was desinged with FOS 3 then double the weight of cars will reduce FOS below 2 which could be a problem. I have never done any engineering with concrete structures so not sure on what FOS they use.

Problems come with shonky people who don't follow the design or use substandard products. If the steel used is thinner it won't be as strong if it's thicker it costs more there has to be an idiot factor with some designs.

Concrete cancer is the steel rusting inside the concrete which is why you get rust stains on concrete this weakens structure by unknown amount.

His AS1170 is for wind loading which can be significant for tall buildings not sure how useful that is for 2-5 story car parks that are open walled. Strong winds can have loads up to 50 lbs square foot which are huge loads on tall buildings.

I doubt many can afford expensive electric cars so i wouldn't be worried about car parks unless building is really old.

Oh hello Baron! Just caught your comment as I was logging off!

FOS?? I’ll have ask him tomorrow morning about that.

Re heavy cars ....SUVs are getting heavier more heavier than EV’s. That’s another mistake in the article of the OP.

He also pointed out this mistake in the article of the OP. 👇

If the Factor of Safety in design is over 5 it shouldn't be a problem with SUV and EVs.

I don't do engineering for static structures like buildings we don't use concrete for things that move. Once upon a time they made boats from Ferro Cement concrete cancer killed that idea. I don't have much experience or interest in concrete structures.

Journalists are the biggest pissheads i have ever met how many times have the fake news got anything right in the last 5 years?

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AusGeoff

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Re: Older Car Parks Could Collapse Under EV's Weight?
Reply #25 - Apr 23^rd, 2023 at 1:23am

Without being able to locate the original, 100-year-old structural
engineering calculations, it's next to impossible to determine what
sorts of self-weight, live load, and imposed dead load figures they
used.

Check out this latest report:

Manhattan parking garage previously cited for exposed cracks before collapse.

Quote:

A focus of the investigation is the weight of the 50 vehicles
parked on the roof and the age of the building, which was
built in 1925. The garage had dozens of violations dating
back decades. Four of those violations are still open.

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