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Vote No (Read 4364 times)
Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: Vote No
Reply #255 - Jul 17th, 2023 at 2:37pm
 
What need for a NO case when those pushing the YES case are so stupid, regardless of their White Man's education?
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: Vote No
Reply #256 - Jul 17th, 2023 at 2:41pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jul 7th, 2023 at 12:25pm:
Sure...it will provide advice to Government and the Executive, said advice having no binding or other influence over Government or the Executive.

Anything else you want to know.



That's never what the YES pushers keep saying - they demand control over laws and governments including in areas of no direct interest to Aborigines - in other words - they demand to be the overlords of this nation .... and it ain't gonna happen.

Albo has created a monster here..... but we'll stop him!!
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Re: Vote No
Reply #257 - Jul 17th, 2023 at 2:43pm
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Jul 17th, 2023 at 1:20pm:
No clue about costings either!


Dear NOT so 'cute and cheeky':

The costs of implementing  a referendum are immaterial for a currency-issuing government, given that the necessary resources to run the referendum are available, AND the currency-issuing government can create debt free money - for itself, that is; though NOT for you and me (the common misunderstanding about "free" money). 


Quote:
Edit : OMG - the reason for why there is no idea about the ongoing cost is wait for it.....the design ie the structure of the body is not even known.


That is true, but the issue - for closing the gap - is the provision of jobs for all - which is the responsibility of the government, since we all have to work to prosper. 

Quote:
You’d have to be stark raving insane to vote YES to that  rubbish!


Maybe, but you are barking up the wrong tree, re "costs".
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Re: Vote No
Reply #258 - Jul 17th, 2023 at 7:16pm
 
I was in Big W today and I found a copy of the Voice Referendum handbook. 80 pages of nothing more than symbolism and no real answers.
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Re: Vote No
Reply #259 - Jul 17th, 2023 at 9:03pm
 
UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 17th, 2023 at 7:16pm:
I was in Big W today and I found a copy of the Voice Referendum handbook. 80 pages of nothing more than symbolism and no real answers.



Were you expected to pay for that tripe?
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Re: Vote No
Reply #260 - Jul 17th, 2023 at 9:06pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jul 17th, 2023 at 9:03pm:
UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 17th, 2023 at 7:16pm:
I was in Big W today and I found a copy of the Voice Referendum handbook. 80 pages of nothing more than symbolism and no real answers.



Were you expected to pay for that tripe?


$12 toilet paper was all it was worth. Might have been useful during the pandemic panic buying of toilet paper.
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Re: Vote No
Reply #261 - Jul 18th, 2023 at 2:08pm
 
UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 17th, 2023 at 9:06pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jul 17th, 2023 at 9:03pm:
UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 17th, 2023 at 7:16pm:
I was in Big W today and I found a copy of the Voice Referendum handbook. 80 pages of nothing more than symbolism and no real answers.



Were you expected to pay for that tripe?


$12 toilet paper was all it was worth. Might have been useful during the pandemic panic buying of toilet paper.


I thought it was free to every household....
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Re: Vote No
Reply #262 - Jul 22nd, 2023 at 5:21pm
 
Rather, constitutions entrench bodies. In our Constitution the operative bodies are the parliament, the executive and the High Court.

Eminent law professors Nicholas Aroney and Peter Gerangelos have pointed out that the voice is established by an entirely new chapter in the Constitution and will assume a constitutional status similar to these three other bodies.

Even the proposed s129(1) declares: “There shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.” Given its text and place in the Constitution, one of its architects, law professor Gabrielle Appleby, says the voice will be “a foundational institution of state” and imagines the voice as a fourth arm of government. It is a significant new body that will introduce profound changes to our system of government.

As we enter the home straight, the decision taken by the Yes camp in the pamphlet to describe a proposed new institution of state as a committee suggests a new desperation. It is obfuscation at best and outright deception at worst.

The problem for this maximalist version of the voice is that it is too big and radical and, when properly explained, extends way beyond what is acceptable to most Australians. An honest assessment of the content of the Yes and No pamphlets shows why. In its pitch to the nation the Yes camp’s careful misdescription of the voice in the Constitution is simply sad. It is an admission that the essence of this voice is unsaleable.

Taken together, the pamphlets leave the voice looking like a spirited, hopeful but wildly experimental empty vessel. It is a national tragedy that because of an absence of proper process and terrible overreach this highly important project looks as if it will run aground.

Louise Clegg is a barrister.


Take note, Arrsie - IS a lawyer.... tsk, tsk.  Shocked Shocked
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Re: Vote No
Reply #263 - Jul 22nd, 2023 at 5:31pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jul 18th, 2023 at 2:08pm:
UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 17th, 2023 at 9:06pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jul 17th, 2023 at 9:03pm:
UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 17th, 2023 at 7:16pm:
I was in Big W today and I found a copy of the Voice Referendum handbook. 80 pages of nothing more than symbolism and no real answers.



Were you expected to pay for that tripe?


$12 toilet paper was all it was worth. Might have been useful during the pandemic panic buying of toilet paper.


I thought it was free to every household....


You might be thinking the pamphlets that are getting mailed out. From the quick perusal of the book, the only extra you find is stories about the 1967 referendum and all the times that indigenous people were excluded from decision making in Australia.
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Re: Vote No
Reply #264 - Jul 22nd, 2023 at 5:33pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jul 17th, 2023 at 1:09pm:
Gnads wrote on Jul 17th, 2023 at 1:02pm:
John Smith wrote on Jul 7th, 2023 at 12:49pm:
Gnads wrote on Jul 7th, 2023 at 10:12am:
If you know the detail of all the machinations of the Voice ... spill ya guts.



The machinations of the voice aren't what you are being asked to vote on. Roll Eyes


If it's going to be enshrined in the Constitution then the machinations/details of how it is to operate has to be made available prior to any referendum vote.


why? the federal govts responsibility for our borders is enshrined in the constitution, Did you have a detailed explanation of how that was to work in the constitution? our federal tax system? Our defense forces? 
What responsibility of the federal government has the machinations spelt out in the constitution?

ABSOLUTELY NONE OF THEM. You're a fool


Just how is an racial minority anywhere near comparable to national border security, tax law & our defense forces?

You're a putz of the highest order.
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Re: Vote No
Reply #265 - Jul 22nd, 2023 at 10:43pm
 
Frank wrote on Jul 22nd, 2023 at 5:21pm:
Rather, constitutions entrench bodies. In our Constitution the operative bodies are the parliament, the executive and the High Court.

Eminent law professors Nicholas Aroney and Peter Gerangelos have pointed out that the voice is established by an entirely new chapter in the Constitution and will assume a constitutional status similar to these three other bodies.

Even the proposed s129(1) declares: “There shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.” Given its text and place in the Constitution, one of its architects, law professor Gabrielle Appleby, says the voice will be “a foundational institution of state” and imagines the voice as a fourth arm of government. It is a significant new body that will introduce profound changes to our system of government.

As we enter the home straight, the decision taken by the Yes camp in the pamphlet to describe a proposed new institution of state as a committee suggests a new desperation. It is obfuscation at best and outright deception at worst.

The problem for this maximalist version of the voice is that it is too big and radical and, when properly explained, extends way beyond what is acceptable to most Australians. An honest assessment of the content of the Yes and No pamphlets shows why. In its pitch to the nation the Yes camp’s careful misdescription of the voice in the Constitution is simply sad. It is an admission that the essence of this voice is unsaleable.

Taken together, the pamphlets leave the voice looking like a spirited, hopeful but wildly experimental empty vessel. It is a national tragedy that because of an absence of proper process and terrible overreach this highly important project looks as if it will run aground.

Louise Clegg is a barrister.


Take note, Arrsie - IS a lawyer.... tsk, tsk.  Shocked Shocked

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Re: Vote No
Reply #266 - Jul 22nd, 2023 at 10:47pm
 
Who IS  an Abo?

Why does it matter?

What is special about an Abo in 2023?

How long will Abos be special? Another 40,000 years?  20,000? 1,000? Why?

When WILL they catch the **** up?






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Re: Vote No
Reply #267 - Jul 26th, 2023 at 9:21am
 
Howard says there is a deep strain of Celtic scepticism in the Australian psyche that may push back against pressure from above, unless the case is made.

“The more you get told, ‘You’ve got to do this because it’s the right thing to do and the good thing to do’, the more people will say: ‘Hang on, tell me why.’”

“We are not being told why. That is the greatest weakness in the (Yes) case.”

Many institutions across the country – from universities and large parts of the media to companies and sporting clubs – are siding with the “yes” campaign, with no explanation beyond banalities. The backlash from ordinary folk saw Big W pull their in-store public address endorsements of the voice.

Howard compares that side to the republic referendum where, again, “every major media outlet was yelling – yelling is the right word – at the Australian people to vote ‘yes.”

It didn’t help.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/why-are-we-doing-this-to-ourselves-john-...
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Re: Vote No
Reply #268 - Aug 9th, 2023 at 8:29am
 
Chile’s race politics a study in why the Indigenous voice to parliament will fail


If Lidia Thorpe ran Australia, it would look like Venezuela. But if Thomas Mayo were PM, we would resemble Chile.

Last year, the former Spanish colony tried to indigenise and environmentalise its constitution. Its citizens rebelled. Sixty-two per cent said no. There are lessons here for Australia.

Last month, I crossed Latin America. I was part of debates about race that were strikingly like those that afflict us. I got to see how indigeneity impacts politics. I left optimistic for what awaits Australia if we vote, like Chile, not to racialise our constitution.

President Gabriel Boric, while not indigenous (his heritage is Croatian and Basque), is a Chilean version of Thomas Mayo, the Kaurareg Aboriginal and Kalkalgal, Erubamle Torres Strait Islander man, and poster boy for the Yes campaign. In 2022, Boric led a failed campaign to entrench racial grievance in a new constitution. Mayo has a similar aim, that may endure the same fate.

Mayo reminded me of Boric. Young (Boric is 37, Mayo 46), convinced of his cause, lauded by campus elites, radicalised by “lived experience” – Boric as a student, Mayo as a trade unionist – assailed by cartoonists. And both determined to divide their polity along racial lines.

Following protests against rising costs of living in 2019, the Chilean government commissioned a new constitution. The drafting process and the resulting text were a progressive’s wet dream.

Fifty per cent of the drafters had to identify as women. Rights were afforded to nature – forests and rivers would be given legal standing. Miners, the nation’s great wealth creators, as here, would be penalised. Land stolen by Spanish colonists would be returned to the Mapuche, the nation’s largest indigenous group, and to other First Chileans.

Advised by assorted Australian academics, Boric sought to transform Chile’s politics from an imperfect neoliberalism – informed by Milton Friedman – into a dubious experiment in woke environmentalism – informed by Greta Thunberg. But dream it remained: two-thirds of voters rejected the overwrought compote.

What lessons does this offer Australia as we contemplate a Labor plan to alter our Constitution?

The first lesson is that race, gender and environmentalism are not an easy sell, separately but especially in combination. The ubiquity of rainbow flags is not indicative of a consensus. Rather, it projects a hubristic orthodoxy ripe for challenge. The voice referendum, like the Chilean one on its constitution, could well present that opportunity.

Second, don’t assume everyone is as sentimentally left-wing as you are, Prime Minister. The literal pulling of “heart” strings by Yes proponents is not a substitute for the lack of detail on how the entrenching of racial division into our Constitution will impact on Australian liberal democracy. We remain one of the most successful experiments in this form of government.

Chile presents a key difference here: the drafters of its constitution assumed interminable detail would conceal ideological intent. In Australia, the Yes campaign is based on the absence of detail to advance its wider ideology. We are being asked to vote on a vibe; that this must be the right thing to do because there is so much weeping and emotion on the Yes side.

The Australian Yes camp, whether it has studied Chile or not, might be on to something. Boric’s text clocked in at 50,000 words. Australia’s Constitution – for a nation slightly larger than Chile – is only 21,500 (with notes). The US constitution, arguably the most successful in history, for a nation 13 times the size of Australia, is a mere 7591 words (with amendments). Size does matter.

In keeping details of the voice short, opaque and grounded in emotion, its opponents have a much harder time countering it. There may be more wisdom in Mayo’s approach than we realise. Time will tell.

A third lesson is to not assume that all indigenous people, in Australia and elsewhere, are the natural constituencies of the progressive, campus left. Sizeable numbers of indigenous Chileans did not see their liberation in the new constitution. Rather, many feared it would perpetuate the condescending paternalism of their left-wing champions. Sound familiar?

In Paraguay, to my surprise, I encountered a robust conservative indigenous politics. Young Guarani professionals, despite many being trained in the woke classrooms of Australian universities, identified as centre-right. Sceptical of the Boric-Mayo quasi-communist path to liberation, they had built businesses, created jobs and sought not to radicalise the poorest sections of Paraguay’s society, but to free them from state welfarism. They wanted race to matter less, not more. All this from within a culture much more scarred by indigenous genocide than anything Australia has approximated.

It was bizarre to our Latin American hosts to see their Australian visitors acknowledge Aboriginal land they were not on. This convention here, and certainly abroad, must surely be approaching its shelf-life? The voice referendum may provide a partial answer.


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Re: Vote No
Reply #269 - Aug 9th, 2023 at 8:30am
 
Fourth, nationalism is much hardier than progressives are willing to admit. The majority of people in Chile and Australia rather like their nations. The left finds this baffling. “Surely, Australians know they must atone for their sins of white foundation?” The legitimacy of welcomes to and acknowledgements of country rely on this question being answered in the affirmative. The voice referendum may well expose this Mayoian wishful thinking.

The drafters of Chile’s constitution wanted a “plurinational” state. The new, progressive Chile would embody many nations. It would, much like the Trudeau regime is attempting in Canada, become a “post-national” country. This might press the buttons of academic social scientists. But most people in Chile rejected it. And they look likely to do so here too.

Fifth, remember the diversity of political approaches to indigeneity. This is not a one-size-fits-all debate. The neo-Marxist binary of oppressor versus oppressed obscures how race politics varies across national arenas. Comparative/global indigenous studies would be a fascinating area of study. It is a turn our universities are slowly taking.

The white guilt narrative plays inconsistently across the world. Alberto Fernandez, President of Argentina, for example, is no Anthony Albanese. In 2021, he asserted the cultural superiority of European settlers: “The Mexicans came from the Indians, the Brazilians came from the jungle, but we Argentines came from the ships. And they were ships that came from Europe.”

No Australian politician would last five minutes after the equivalent claim.


Finally, we need to acknowledge that making constitutions is hard; amending them rare and often momentous. Chile is a case study the No and Yes camps here need to know better. Wishful, heartfelt motivations are not enough.

The anger of Lidia Thorpe (in the No camp) or emotionalism of Thomas Mayo (in the Yes camp) is unlikely to realise the racial justice they both seek. There is hope out there that race may be less salient than Australian progressives insist. Ask Gabriel Boric – and book a flight to Santiago and Asuncion.

Timothy J. Lynch is a professor of political science at the University of Melbourne.
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