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THE REAL VOICE AGENDA FINALLY REVEALED (Read 2420 times)
Frank
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Re: THE REAL VOICE AGENDA FINALLY REVEALED
Reply #15 - Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:13pm
 
Linus wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:02pm:
Posters here might like to look up the UN DECLARATION ON THE RIGHTS OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLE to which Australia endorsed this, after some hesitancy, on April 3, 2009.

Although it doesn't tie our hands to any course of action, the direction is set.

"The Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 14 September 2007 (AEST). The Declaration has 46 substantive articles and 24 preambular paragraphs.1 It includes 9 changes to the text of the Declaration as adopted by the UN Human Rights Council in June 2006.

The Declaration is divided into the following broad thematic areas:

    Over-arching principles (Articles 1-6): The rights of indigenous peoples to the full enjoyment of all human rights, non-discrimination, self-determination and autonomy, maintenance of Indigenous institutions, and the right to a nationality.

    Life, integrity and security (Articles 7-10): Freedom from genocide, forced assimilation or destruction of culture, forced relocation from land, right to integrity and security of the person, and right to belong to an indigenous community or nation.

    Cultural, spiritual and linguistic identity (Articles 11 – 13): Rights to practice and revitalize culture and the transmission of histories, languages etc; and the protection of traditions, sites, ceremonial objects and repatriation of remains.

    Education, information and labour rights (Articles 14-17): Right to education, including to run own educational institutions and teach in language; cultures to be reflected in education and public information; access to media (both mainstream and indigenous specific); and rights to protection of labour law and from economic exploitation.
   

Participatory, development and other economic and social rights (Articles 18-24): Rights to participation in decision-making, through representative bodies; rights to their own institutions to secure subsistence and development; special measures to be adopted to address indigenous disadvantage and ensure non-discriminatory enjoyment of rights; guarantees against violence and discrimination for women and children; right to development; and access to traditional health practices and medicines.

 
  Land, territories and resources rights (Articles 25-32): rights to maintain traditional connections to land and territories; for ownership of such lands and protection of lands by State; establishment of systems to recognize indigenous lands; rights to redress and compensation for lands that have been taken; conservation and protection of the environment; measures relating to storage of hazardous waste and military activities on indigenous lands; protection of traditional knowledge, cultural heritage and expressions and intellectual property; and processes for development on indigenous land.
   

Indigenous institutions (Article 33 – 37): Rights to determine membership and to maintain institutions (including judicial systems), to determine responsibilities of individuals to their communities, to maintain relations across international borders, and right to the recognition of treaties, agreements and other constructive arrangements with States.

    Implementation of the Declaration (Articles 38 – 42): States and UN agencies to implement the provisions of the Declaration, including through technical and financial assistance; access to financial and technical assistance for Indigenous peoples to implement the Declaration; and conflict resolution processes to be established that are just and fair.

    General provisions of the Declaration (Articles 43-46): The provisions of the Declaration are recognized as minimum standards and apply equally to Indigenous men and women; the standards recognized in the Declaration may not be used to limit or diminish indigenous rights, and must be exercised in conformity with the UN Charter and universal human rights standards; the provisions in the Declaration to be interpreted in accordance with principles of justice, democracy, respect for human rights, equality, non-discrimination, good governance and good faith."

[url]

https://humanrights.gov.au/our-work/un-declaration-rights-indigenous-peoples
[/url]


Aboriginese are fully participating in the country's social and political life and have hundreds of organisation of self- directed action in all walks of life, many funded by everyone else (taxpayers).

Thd Voice in the constitution is not something this or any UN declaration or treaty requires. Australia fully meets its obligation without such a constitutional change.


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Linus
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Re: THE REAL VOICE AGENDA FINALLY REVEALED
Reply #16 - Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:20pm
 
The Voice is not going to impinge on you in any adverse way, Lisa. You'll continue to muddle through in your benighted universe just the same.
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Lisa Jones
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Re: THE REAL VOICE AGENDA FINALLY REVEALED
Reply #17 - Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:22pm
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:13pm:
I had difficulty clicking on that non clickable link but eventually I got there.

So what happened to this missing bit?

The exercise of the rights set forth in this Declaration shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law, and in accordance with international human rights obligations.

Any such limitations shall be non-discriminatory and strictly necessary solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and for meeting the just and most compelling requirements of a democratic society.


Linus ... how come you missed posting this section??
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Linus
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Re: THE REAL VOICE AGENDA FINALLY REVEALED
Reply #18 - Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:31pm
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:22pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:13pm:
I had difficulty clicking on that non clickable link but eventually I got there.

So what happened to this missing bit?

The exercise of the rights set forth in this Declaration shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law, and in accordance with international human rights obligations.

Any such limitations shall be non-discriminatory and strictly necessary solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and for meeting the just and most compelling requirements of a democratic society.


Linus ... how come you missed posting this section??


If you're insinuating I did it intentionally, forget it. If I wanted to hide anything, I wouldn't have given you a link to my source.  Roll Eyes

I thought that the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People would better inform this debate and highlight why Australia is moving as it is.

But do note, that I did indicate that how Australia pursues the provisions in the declaration is not set.
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Lisa Jones
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Re: THE REAL VOICE AGENDA FINALLY REVEALED
Reply #19 - Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:40pm
 
Linus wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:20pm:
The Voice is not going to impinge on you in any adverse way, Lisa. You'll continue to muddle through in your benighted universe just the same.


Your passive-aggressive assumptions are not even interesting these days.
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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

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Lisa Jones
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Re: THE REAL VOICE AGENDA FINALLY REVEALED
Reply #20 - Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:42pm
 
Frank wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:13pm:
Aboriginese are fully participating in the country's social and political life and have hundreds of organisation of self- directed action in all walks of life, many funded by everyone else (taxpayers).

Thd Voice in the constitution is not something this or any UN declaration or treaty requires. Australia fully meets its obligation without such a constitutional change.




Exactly!
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Linus
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Re: THE REAL VOICE AGENDA FINALLY REVEALED
Reply #21 - Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:47pm
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:40pm:
Linus wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:20pm:
The Voice is not going to impinge on you in any adverse way, Lisa. You'll continue to muddle through in your benighted universe just the same.


Your passive-aggressive assumptions are not even interesting these days.


Nothing passive-aggressive about it.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: THE REAL VOICE AGENDA FINALLY REVEALED
Reply #22 - Aug 2nd, 2023 at 5:27pm
 
Linus wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:47pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:40pm:
Linus wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:20pm:
The Voice is not going to impinge on you in any adverse way, Lisa. You'll continue to muddle through in your benighted universe just the same.


Your passive-aggressive assumptions are not even interesting these days.


Nothing passive-aggressive about it.


So the voice idea is totally Aboriginal exclusive territory, and has no impact on anyone else?

You are a dreamer.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Linus
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Re: THE REAL VOICE AGENDA FINALLY REVEALED
Reply #23 - Aug 2nd, 2023 at 6:05pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 5:27pm:
Linus wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:47pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:40pm:
Linus wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:20pm:
The Voice is not going to impinge on you in any adverse way, Lisa. You'll continue to muddle through in your benighted universe just the same.


Your passive-aggressive assumptions are not even interesting these days.


Nothing passive-aggressive about it.


So the voice idea is totally Aboriginal exclusive territory, and has no impact on anyone else?

You are a dreamer.


It won't affect Lisa's life  and I doubt it will affect yours or mine.

I'm not sure what you think is going to happen. But if it's along the line of this:

,

then I think you're having unnecessary nightmares.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: THE REAL VOICE AGENDA FINALLY REVEALED
Reply #24 - Aug 2nd, 2023 at 7:29pm
 
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: THE REAL VOICE AGENDA FINALLY REVEALED
Reply #25 - Aug 2nd, 2023 at 7:37pm
 
Linus wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 6:05pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 5:27pm:
Linus wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:47pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:40pm:
Linus wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:20pm:
The Voice is not going to impinge on you in any adverse way, Lisa. You'll continue to muddle through in your benighted universe just the same.


Your passive-aggressive assumptions are not even interesting these days.


Nothing passive-aggressive about it.


So the voice idea is totally Aboriginal exclusive territory, and has no impact on anyone else?

You are a dreamer.


It won't affect Lisa's life  and I doubt it will affect yours or mine.

I'm not sure what you think is going to happen. But if it's along the line of this:

,

then I think you're having unnecessary nightmares.



The point is and always has been - what part of Aboriginal interaction with our society does not affect others?  Your path to understanding could start there... think 'what part of women's rights impact only on women?' .... so - what part oa Indigenous rights impact only on the Indigenous?

....then move to - then why does this need to be enshrined in the constitution when the job could be done more cheaply without those added costs of a voice superstructure which history, according to Albo himself with New Zealand, shows will lead to troubles and lawsuits and so forth and gained powers and control over segments of society at large?

I said long ago that Albo was undermining the very voice he said he was proposing and supporting.... like all the rest of them he's done a great job of destroying its chances.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Gnads
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Re: THE REAL VOICE AGENDA FINALLY REVEALED
Reply #26 - Aug 3rd, 2023 at 7:48am
 
Linus wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 6:05pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 5:27pm:
Linus wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:47pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:40pm:
Linus wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:20pm:
The Voice is not going to impinge on you in any adverse way, Lisa. You'll continue to muddle through in your benighted universe just the same.


Your passive-aggressive assumptions are not even interesting these days.


Nothing passive-aggressive about it.


So the voice idea is totally Aboriginal exclusive territory, and has no impact on anyone else?

You are a dreamer.


It won't affect Lisa's life  and I doubt it will affect yours or mine.

I'm not sure what you think is going to happen. But if it's along the line of this:

,

then I think you're having unnecessary nightmares.


I'll second Grapplers comment .... you're a dreamer

or delusionary.
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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais
 
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Frank
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Re: THE REAL VOICE AGENDA FINALLY REVEALED
Reply #27 - Aug 3rd, 2023 at 8:32am
 
Linus wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 6:05pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 5:27pm:
Linus wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:47pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:40pm:
Linus wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:20pm:
The Voice is not going to impinge on you in any adverse way, Lisa. You'll continue to muddle through in your benighted universe just the same.


Your passive-aggressive assumptions are not even interesting these days.


Nothing passive-aggressive about it.


So the voice idea is totally Aboriginal exclusive territory, and has no impact on anyone else?

You are a dreamer.


It won't affect Lisa's life  and I doubt it will affect yours or mine.

I'm not sure what you think is going to happen. But if it's along the line of this:

,

then I think you're having unnecessary nightmares.


This is one of the most vacuous and parochial 'arguments' in this debate.

The Constitution affects every aspect of your life that has anything to do with laws and government because it is the basis law and rule book of what legislations and the three arms of government that make and administer them can and cannot do.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: THE REAL VOICE AGENDA FINALLY REVEALED
Reply #28 - Aug 3rd, 2023 at 9:33am
 
Frank wrote on Aug 3rd, 2023 at 8:32am:
This is one of the most vacuous and parochial 'arguments' in this debate.

The Constitution affects every aspect of your life that has anything to do with laws and government because it is the basis law and rule book of what legislations and the three arms of government that make and administer them can and cannot do.



I will now return you to my discussion point raised previously and ignored in the overall furore.

Because:- "The Constitution affects every aspect of your life that has anything to do with laws and government because it is the basis law and rule book of what legislations and the three arms of government that make and administer them can and cannot do."

Why then are dual citizens, who cannot stand for or sit in the over-arching arm of government - the legislature which makes laws - permitted to vote in a referendum that will change that constitution which "affects every aspect of your life that has anything to do with laws and government".

When people begin to play the game of 'classes ' of citizen - they are opening up one massive can of worms.  We are either a democracy of equals with one person/one vote for all citizens of all stamps - or we are not.

Just reminding you all - the work needed in this country to get it on the straight and narrow is enormous and not restricted to a single issue such as this 'voice'.

Now then - about this 'comparative disadvantage ' .... but I'll leave that for another discussion...
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Frank
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Re: THE REAL VOICE AGENDA FINALLY REVEALED
Reply #29 - Aug 3rd, 2023 at 9:51am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Aug 3rd, 2023 at 9:33am:
Frank wrote on Aug 3rd, 2023 at 8:32am:
This is one of the most vacuous and parochial 'arguments' in this debate.

The Constitution affects every aspect of your life that has anything to do with laws and government because it is the basis law and rule book of what legislations and the three arms of government that make and administer them can and cannot do.



I will now return you to my discussion point raised previously and ignored in the overall furore.

Because:- "The Constitution affects every aspect of your life that has anything to do with laws and government because it is the basis law and rule book of what legislations and the three arms of government that make and administer them can and cannot do."

Why then are dual citizens, who cannot stand for or sit in the over-arching arm of government - the legislature which makes laws - permitted to vote in a referendum that will change that constitution which "affects every aspect of your life that has anything to do with laws and government".

When people begin to play the game of 'classes ' of citizen - they are opening up one massive can of worms.  We are either a democracy of equals with one person/one vote for all citizens of all stamps - or we are not.

Just reminding you all - the work needed in this country to get it on the straight and narrow is enormous and not restricted to a single issue such as this 'voice'.

Now then - about this 'comparative disadvantage ' .... but I'll leave that for another discussion...


Conflict of interest.

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