Australian Politics Forum - What is a 'right'?

Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #75 - Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 7:14am freediver wrote on Sep 21^st, 2023 at 8:49am: It is an intersubjective reality. Correct. And as such it changes over time and space.
Back to top	If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free. HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415) IP Logged

chimera

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 10507
armidale
Gender: male

Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #76 - Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 7:33am

freediver wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 7:05am:

, freedom of speech is fundamentally different from a gall bladder?

Freely speaking means healthy vocal chords, similar to a healthy gall bladder. Freedom of speech is a legal situation. The 'human right to freedom of speech' is different from a gall bladder, is Yankee hot air and Trump diahhrea with school shootings..

Back to top

IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics 

Posts: 12184
Gender: male

Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #77 - Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 10:42am

Frank wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2023 at 2:02pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2023 at 11:22am:

Frank wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2023 at 9:34am:

God created man in his own image - and each culture, in turn, creates its god in its own image. The Christian God created man with freedom without distinction, Allah created slaves, Yahweh created a chosen people with laws applicable only to them.

Frank, I already disposed of your 'Rights emanate from Jesus Christ' theory. As graps would say, we can "safely" say Jesus was a man, because we can observe:

1. all men forever have been seeking "god".

2. men have turned mortals into gods at least until Roman times...as Josephus wryly observed; "if indeed he (Christ) was a man" ....

Quote:

In traditional Greek and Roman thought, only the wealthy and powerful had rights in society. That’s how Nature intended it.

An opinion?

(quick google)

A right for Aristotle is essentially a just claim that a person has against other members of the same community, and a natural right is a just claim based in nature

But as I said, nature ensures the survival of life in the aggregate, not the lives of individual creatures - by observation; there are no "individual Rights" in nature's jungle, "rights' (, more correctly, desires) are the creation of men's cortex brains seeking "fairness".

Quote:

But by the end of the fourth century, people like Basil and other Christian intellectuals were arguing that everyone has rights, including, and perhaps especially, the poor. That’s how God intended it.

An unrealized "intention"? The poor are still dying prematurely....

Quote:

The claim that all human beings have rights, regardless of birth, status, or creed, didn’t pop out of nowhere during the 18th-century Enlightenment. Its roots are biblical, and it was Christian thinkers from Basil onwards that shaped the Western concept of “human rights”.

I think your rejection of the Buddha, Confucius and Aristotle, thinkers who predated Christ, is problematic.

I think the foggy, manic chaos in your head is problematic. You do not understand even basic concepts, have no sense of history or the development of ideas.

In a proper debate you would need to refute the points I made above. eg the quote re Aristotle's conception of "rights" directly contradicts your assertion only the wealthy had "rights" in Greek society.

Quote:

All ancient philosophies and religions posit a universal moral order. But only Christianity posits, in additional, a universal, equal moral worth to each human being.

Maybe, but that is moving away from the idea of "rights".

And obviously if all people have the same "moral worth", (as opposed to 'Rights'), Christ would be a supporter of the UNUDHR, since all people have the same "moral worth" (according to you).

Meanwhile chimera is on the right track (no pun intended); "rights" are human constructs - hence the contention in defining "rights".

And I reckon both you and chimera are supporters of the UNSC veto power which guarantees never ending wars (since very individual/nation has his/its own idea of "rights"), in the name of individual "freedom".

Back to top

IP Logged

Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 43845 Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #78 - Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 11:02am Greeks, including Aristotle and Plato, thought that some people were natural slaves, lacking the higher levels of the soul. I don't think anyone ever said that rights are not human concepts. F put is in a nutshell: interpersonal. It is about human relationship, not physical attributes.
Back to top	Estragon: I can’t go on like this. Vladimir: That’s what you think. IP Logged

chimera

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 10507
armidale
Gender: male

Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #79 - Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 11:04am

The US over-reach in declaring 'human rights' gave energy to creating the UN as a god in the image of the US Constitution. As they say, 'jaw-jaw not war-war'. Dunno about UN veto - it's a safety valve that keeps the Kremlin and Beijing in the room. The US Founding Fathers want the right to Holy Mother Russia. The right humans as US Secretaries of Defense, State and Commerce are unelected which gets Putin's and Xi's vote, except they veto.

Back to top

IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics 

Posts: 12184
Gender: male

Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #80 - Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 11:07am

chimera wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2023 at 8:05pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2023 at 10:57am:

chimera wrote on Sep 21^st, 2023 at 8:27pm:

The UN 'rights' become a bit ridiculous in their complexity.

A "right" is NOT an "instinctive compulsion", though the individual's (unconscious) survival instincts are.

Me: 'If a right is an instinctive compulsion, then who naturally says to themselves'.
Agreed that it's a false idea, which is why I argue against it. The argument is that complex UN statements can't be a natural human notion. The detail of the the statements is not my point.

The argument I (incorrectly?) gleaned from you (re the UNUDHR) was that the 30 delineated rights in that document created "complexity" re 'rights', and therefore can be rejected on that ground.

Now you say the detail of the UNUDHR is not the point.

For my part, I like the UNUDHR because it posits a world of well-being and security for all.

I think we both agree "rights" are contested human constructs, not inalienable, inherent and natural.

Whereas individuals' desires are very 'natural and inalienable', though perhaps amenable to education.....

Back to top

IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics 

Posts: 12184
Gender: male

Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #81 - Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 11:18am

Frank wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 11:02am:

Greeks, including Aristotle and Plato, thought that some people were natural slaves, lacking the higher levels of the soul.

Now THAT is debate....well done.

Quote:

I don't think anyone ever said that rights are not human concepts.

I think some of the founders (inter alia) of the US Constitution tried to assert that 'rights' (being "natural, inalienable" according to them) exist beyond human conception and hence beyond debate - "rights" even 'emanate' from God.

Quote:

F put is in a nutshell: interpersonal.
It is about human relationship, not physical attributes.

Indeed...and relationships based on self-interest of the powerful lead to conflict/alienation/disempowerment for many.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 11:24am by thegreatdivide »

IP Logged

chimera

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 10507
armidale
Gender: male

Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #82 - Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 11:31am

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 11:07am:

Now you say the detail of the UNUDHR is not the point.
For my part, I like the UNUDHR because it posits a world of well-being and security for all.

It would be better expressed as:" 'the merits' is not the point".
A 'human right' if such existed would be simple and brief. A long definition makes it unlikely, and resembles a joke that needs to be explained. It doesn't work.

The ideals are useful for sure. If many governments ignore them, they are really pie-in-sky from Uncle Sam.

Back to top

IP Logged

Frank

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 43845
Gender: male

Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #83 - Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 11:34am

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 11:18am:

Quote:

I don't think anyone ever said that rights are not human concepts.

I think some of the founders (inter alia) of the US Constitution tried to assert that 'rights' (being "natural, inalienable" according to them) exist beyond human conception and hence beyond debate - "rights" even 'emanate' from God.

I don't think you understand the concept 'natural right'. It does not mean 'beyond human conception', that would be paradoxical, even meaningless.
It certainly doesn't mean 'beyond debate'. It means characteristically human, and only human (Apes or dogs have to rightful claims on each other) .

So the question, the nub, is 'what IS human nature'? That is at the root of any debate on human rights. Those who believed in the creator God obviously identified human nature as being god-created and therefore human rights, inherent in humans, as god-given.
But today even atheists believe in human rights even if they reject God, creation, createdness, even human nature. Why? Because human rights are about ( human ) relationships. Some people now attribute to animals in their relationship to humans (although still not among animals themselves).

Back to top

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48814
At my desk.

Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #84 - Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 11:42am

chimera wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 7:33am:

freediver wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 7:05am:

, freedom of speech is fundamentally different from a gall bladder?

Freely speaking means healthy vocal chords, similar to a healthy gall bladder. Freedom of speech is a legal situation. The 'human right to freedom of speech' is different from a gall bladder, is Yankee hot air and Trump diahhrea with school shootings..

Is that what it says in your CCP guide to talking to foreigners?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics 

Posts: 12184
Gender: male

Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #85 - Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 12:03pm

Frank wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 11:34am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 11:18am:

Quote:

I don't think anyone ever said that rights are not human concepts.

I think some of the founders (inter alia) of the US Constitution tried to assert that 'rights' (being "natural, inalienable" according to them) exist beyond human conception and hence beyond debate - "rights" even 'emanate' from God.

I don't think you understand the concept 'natural right'. It does not mean 'beyond human conception', that would be paradoxical, even meaningless.

I was struggling with that idea as I examined the classical Liberal concept of "natural/inalienable, and God-given" 'Rights'; surely such "rights" - if they existed - are beyond debate?

Quote:

It certainly doesn't mean 'beyond debate'. It means characteristically human, and only human (Apes or dogs have to rightful claims on each other) .

Now we are back to the debate re the difference between humans who possess a highly developed cortex brain, in contrast with other creatures.

So far you have couched your argument in what "Rights" are not, let's see if you can say what "Rights" are, beyond being "human".

Quote:

So the question, the nub, is 'what IS human nature'? That is at the root of any debate on human rights.

We have debated this before. Your "Man created in the image of God" argument is flawed, because men have their own self-interested desires.

Quote:

Those who believed in the creator God obviously identified human nature as being god-created and therefore human rights, inherent in humans, as god-given.

Yes. But they failed to account for the consequences of individuals' self interest in human affairs.

Quote:

But today even atheists believe in human rights even if they reject God, creation, createdness, even human nature.

I'm not an athiest, but I believe "rights" are delusional, an attempt to elevate 'rights' above individuals' desires.

Quote:

Why? Because human rights are about ( human ) relationships. Some people now attribute to animals in their relationship to humans (although still not among animals themselves).

Your meaning is unclear; you cannot deny humans have conflicting desires; and you haven't defined the "rights" ("natural and inalienable/God-given" 'rights') you are talking about.

Back to top

IP Logged

chimera

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 10507
armidale
Gender: male

Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #86 - Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 12:05pm

Frank wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 11:34am:

human nature as being god-created and therefore human rights, inherent in humans, as god-given.

That's being circular. It needs an example of a godly constitution for a parliament. Maybe Zeus and the boys on Mount Olympus? But Daddy Zeus had divine right, not a popular plebiscite and has revival movements today which suggests that total power has totally corrupted Senator Zeus.

Back to top

IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics 

Posts: 12184
Gender: male

Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #87 - Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 12:10pm

freediver wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 11:42am:

chimera wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 7:33am:

freediver wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 7:05am:

, freedom of speech is fundamentally different from a gall bladder?

Freely speaking means healthy vocal chords, similar to a healthy gall bladder. Freedom of speech is a legal situation. The 'human right to freedom of speech' is different from a gall bladder, is Yankee hot air and Trump diahhrea with school shootings..

Is that what it says in your CCP guide to talking to foreigners?

Funny.... you are replying to chimera who believes in individual "freedom".

Back to top

IP Logged

chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #88 - Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 12:13pm freediver wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 11:42am: Is that what it says in your CCP guide to talking to foreigners? Yes, our American visitors are shown the human rights we discovered in the Qin Shi Huang royal tombs. They are ceramic and made by Madison, Adams and Amendment in the shape of gall bladders.
Back to top	IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #89 - Sep 24^th, 2023 at 7:15am Are you trying to tell us that you have discovered why you cannot read about human rights in your biology textbook?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged