Australian Politics Forum - What is a 'right'?

chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #180 - Sep 29^th, 2023 at 5:00pm An 'inherent, inalienable right'?
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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #181 - Sep 29^th, 2023 at 6:22pm

chimera wrote on Sep 29^th, 2023 at 5:00pm:

An 'inherent, inalienable right'?

Rights are interpersonal, as the poet fd said, in a way physics or chemistry or biochemistry are not.

So rights are realised in the context of interpersonal encounters - like love, friendship, trust, betrayal, cheating, honourableness and all the rest.

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #182 - Sep 29^th, 2023 at 6:31pm Precisely absolute. Permanent inherent they were not.
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12184 Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #183 - Sep 30^th, 2023 at 10:53am Sir Eoin O Fada wrote on Sep 29^th, 2023 at 4:44pm: The right to life for starters trumps anything else. Endless wars and entrenched poverty destroy life. So what does the "right" to life mean, when endless war and entrenched poverty are maintained by political machinations?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #184 - Sep 30^th, 2023 at 11:11am

Frank wrote on Sep 29^th, 2023 at 6:22pm:

chimera wrote on Sep 29^th, 2023 at 5:00pm:

An 'inherent, inalienable right'?

Rights are interpersonal, as the poet fd said, in a way physics or chemistry or biochemistry are not.

So rights are realised in the context of interpersonal encounters - like love, friendship, trust, betrayal, cheating, honourableness and all the rest.

A sensible post, as far as it goes. ...avoiding nonsense about "inherent, inalienable, natural, self-evident" etc. etc .

Re the "Interpersonal": like I have said all along, if there is more than one individual in the world - individuals who by nature are instinctively (as well as sometimes consciously) self-interested, as well as possessing a (cortex-based) sense of 'fairness' not existing in the animal world - then relationships will need to be managed by rule of law, to avoid chaos.

Note: the "betrayal" you mentioned is most likely rooted in (conscious or unconscious) self-interest , cf love which encompasses the interests of others.

Unfortunately, we still haven't created laws to eradicate endless wars and entrenched poverty....

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #185 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 10:44am

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2023 at 12:44pm:

Quote:

Still waiting for your description of what a human right is.

I told you what it is on the first page of this thread.

The first post of yours*** I can find in this thread ie #8 reads:

"It is an intersubjective reality."

...which surely means 'rights' are subjective, not objective reality.

[apart from the fact you still haven't given an example of an actual 'right'].

***disregarding your #4 which is obviously subjective propaganda

"If it is not in your CCP handbook, then it doesn't exist. Right?".

You already said rights are subjective - the irony of it.

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« Last Edit: Oct 1^st, 2023 at 10:57am by thegreatdivide »

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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #186 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 10:56am

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 10:44am:

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2023 at 12:44pm:

Quote:

Still waiting for your description of what a human right is.

I told you what it is on the first page of this thread.

The first post of yours*** I can find in this thread ie #8 reads:

"It is an intersubjective reality."

...which surely means 'rights' are subjective, not objective reality.

[apart from the fact you still haven't given an example of actual 'right'].

***disregarding your #4 which is obviously subjective propaganda

"If it is not in your CCP handbook, then it doesn't exist. Right?".

You already said rights are subjective - the irony of it.

Intersubjective is not subjective, silly 'surely means' ignorant parrot.

Love, the law, rights, obligations etc are intersubjective, objectively speaking. They occur, CAN ONLY occur, between human subjects.

None of these things occur between objects, which doesn't mean that there are therefore not objective. You are a laughable, grimly determined, ignorant fool.

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« Last Edit: Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:02am by Frank »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #187 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:07am

Frank wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 10:56am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 10:44am:

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2023 at 12:44pm:

Quote:

Still waiting for your description of what a human right is.

I told you what it is on the first page of this thread.

The first post of yours*** I can find in this thread ie #8 reads:

"It is an intersubjective reality."

...which surely means 'rights' are subjective, not objective reality.

[apart from the fact you still haven't given an example of actual 'right'].

***disregarding your #4 which is obviously subjective propaganda

"If it is not in your CCP handbook, then it doesn't exist. Right?".

You already said rights are subjective - the irony of it.

Intersubjective is not subjective, silly 'surely means' ignorant parrot.

I wondered if I would have to spell it out for you.

"Inter- subjective"....... meaning according to the desires or subjective beliefs of the 2 individuals (or entities) who are inter-acting.

Quote:

Love, the law, rights, obligations are intersubjective, objectively speaking.

Circular reasoning: love between individuals, as opposed to hate toward other individuals, is somehow consistent with objective, inherent "rights"?

Obvious nonsense.

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« Last Edit: Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:19am by thegreatdivide »

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 47276 Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #188 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:11am The 'right' of Civilisation is for people to have domination over other people.
Back to top	AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY. IP Logged

Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #189 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:20am

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:07am:

Frank wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 10:56am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 10:44am:

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2023 at 12:44pm:

Quote:

Still waiting for your description of what a human right is.

I told you what it is on the first page of this thread.

The first post of yours*** I can find in this thread ie #8 reads:

"It is an intersubjective reality."

...which surely means 'rights' are subjective, not objective reality.

[apart from the fact you still haven't given an example of actual 'right'].

***disregarding your #4 which is obviously subjective propaganda

"If it is not in your CCP handbook, then it doesn't exist. Right?".

You already said rights are subjective - the irony of it.

Intersubjective is not subjective, silly 'surely means' ignorant parrot.

I wondered if I would have to spell it out for you.

"Inter- subjective"....... meaning according to the desires or subjective beliefs of the 2 individuals who are inter-acting.

Quote:

Love, the law, rights, obligations are intersubjective, objectively speaking.

Circular reasoning: love between individuals, as opposed to hate toward other individuals, is somehow consistent with objective, inherent "rights"?

Obvious nonsense.

You ARE a militant idiot.

intersubjectivity

QUICK REFERENCE
1. The process and product of sharing experiences, knowledge, understandings, and expectations with others. A key feature of social constructionism, symbolic interactionism, and phenomenological approaches generally. The existence, nature, and meaning of things is not entirely up to the individual but subject to social and linguistic constraints within a culture or subculture (there has to be some degree of consensus or communication would be impossible; see also linguistic turn). The concept of intersubjectivity not only counters the undiluted subjectivism of extreme philosophical idealism but also the pure objectivism of naïve realism, since the same constraints filter our apprehension of the world. Things and their meanings are intersubjective to the extent that we share common understandings of them. Cultural identity is experienced through intersubjectivity. See also reality construction.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12184 Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #190 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:25am Jasin wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:16am: The 'right' of Civilisation is for people to have domination over other people. "Civilization"? Have a look at uncivilized nature and people: domination of others is endemic. HG Wells has a more useful observation: "Civilization is a race between education and catastrophe"
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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #191 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:31am

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:25am:

Jasin wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:16am:

The 'right' of Civilisation is for people to have domination over other people.

"Civilization"?

Have a look at uncivilized nature and people: domination of others is endemic.

HG Wells has a more useful observation:
"Civilization is a race between education and catastrophe"

Well, you are a living example of catastrophe's triumph.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #192 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:48am

Frank wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:31am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:25am:

Jasin wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:16am:

The 'right' of Civilisation is for people to have domination over other people.

"Civilization"?

Have a look at uncivilized nature and people: domination of others is endemic.

HG Wells has a more useful observation:
"Civilization is a race between education and catastrophe"

Well, you are a living example of catastrophe's triumph.

Unable to debate the issues, as usual.

Have a shot; we got as far as:

Frank: "Love, the law, rights, obligations are intersubjective, objectively speaking."

TGD: "Circular reasoning: love between individuals, as opposed to hate toward other individuals, is somehow consistent with objective, inherent "rights"?

In your statement above, you have erroneously conflated "rights...are intersubjective" with the implication 'rights are a therefore (universal) objective', on the false basis the statement itself is objectively there ("objectively speaking"), on the page.

Low IQ?

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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #193 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 1:38pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:48am:

Frank wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:31am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:25am:

Jasin wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:16am:

The 'right' of Civilisation is for people to have domination over other people.

"Civilization"?

Have a look at uncivilized nature and people: domination of others is endemic.

HG Wells has a more useful observation:
"Civilization is a race between education and catastrophe"

Well, you are a living example of catastrophe's triumph.

Unable to debate the issues, as usual.

Have a shot; we got as far as:

Frank: "Love, the law, rights, obligations are intersubjective, objectively speaking."

TGD: "Circular reasoning: love between individuals, as opposed to hate toward other individuals, is somehow consistent with objective, inherent "rights"?

In your statement above, you have erroneously conflated "rights...are intersubjective" with the implication 'rights are a therefore (universal) objective', on the false basis the statement itself is objectively there ("objectively speaking"), on the page.

Low IQ?

It is impossible to debate a militant idiot like you who doesn't understand the basic concepts and words the debate turns on. And having misunderstood or misrepresented what was said, you double down on your idiocy.

Rights are relations between human subjects = they are intersubjective.
That is not a matter of subjective opinion but is the case regardless of opinion = objectively the case.

Objective doesn't mean 'from the point of view of objects' since only human beings, conscious subjects, have views and perspectives. That is also an objectively true statement since it is not a matter of subjective opinion.
( I can just see how this will completely shortcircut your parrot brain Grin

)

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #194 - Oct 2^nd, 2023 at 10:01am

Frank wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 1:38pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:48am:

Frank wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:31am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:25am:

Jasin wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:16am:

The 'right' of Civilisation is for people to have domination over other people.

"Civilization"?

Have a look at uncivilized nature and people: domination of others is endemic.

HG Wells has a more useful observation:
"Civilization is a race between education and catastrophe"

Well, you are a living example of catastrophe's triumph.

Unable to debate the issues, as usual.

Have a shot; we got as far as:

Frank: "Love, the law, rights, obligations are intersubjective, objectively speaking."

TGD: "Circular reasoning: love between individuals, as opposed to hate toward other individuals, is somehow consistent with objective, inherent "rights"?

In your statement above, you have erroneously conflated "rights...are intersubjective" with the implication 'rights are a therefore (universal) objective', on the false basis the statement itself is objectively there ("objectively speaking"), on the page.

Low IQ?

It is impossible to debate a militant idiot like you who doesn't understand the basic concepts and words the debate turns on. And having misunderstood or misrepresented what was said, you double down on your idiocy.

still no debate, but I see something following:

Quote:

Rights are relations between human subjects = they are intersubjective.

No disagreement so far; but note how far you have strayed from the classical liberal assertion, namely, rights are "natural, and inalienable".

[Note: so far, still no actual examples of these postulated "rights"].

Quote:

That is not a matter of subjective opinion but is the case regardless of opinion = objectively the case.

Well...while I'm ok with agreeing that "rights are relations between people", I'm not sure the case has been proven that this is what rights are. And the "subjectivity" bit just implies agreement between the two individuals negotiating these "right", re universals like the 'right' to life and liberty.

eg, the 'right' to possess property can well lead to disaggrement among individuals over the right to 'live', given the instinct for possession of territory.

Quote:

Objective doesn't mean 'from the point of view of objects' since only human beings, conscious subjects, have views and perspectives.

I think we better stop using the words subjective and objective to discover what 'rights' are; your above sentence is devoid of any real meaning eg one can say humans are objectively 'objects' who have subjective opinions.

So that gets us back to 'rights are inter-personal'. ...and persons have different opinons on what are important considerations for a given 'interpersonal relationship'.

[quote[That is also an objectively true statement since it is not a matter of subjective opinion.
( I can just see how this will completely shortcircut your parrot brain Grin

)
[/quote]

Wrong of course. I correctly identified your sloppy usage of subject/subjectivity and object/objectivity above.

So pretty please (since fraudiver has disapppeared) : an example of interpersonal relations which define a right.

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