Australian Politics Forum - What is a 'right'?

thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #225 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 10:33am

Frank wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 9:36am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 9:00am:

Frank wrote on Oct 5^th, 2023 at 7:28pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 5^th, 2023 at 11:39am:

freediver wrote on Oct 5^th, 2023 at 11:23am:

Quote:

So the "subjective consciousness of many individuals" is an inalienable right, according to you.

No, that is not what I said.

Yet you - being fraudiver - don't have the nous or integrity to explain what you think the passage means, hence being a prize fraud, you are satisfied to rely on what you didn't/won't say.

Let's have another try - and see where the fraud takes us this time...:

(Rights are) "... imaginary entities that exist only within the communication network linking the subjective consciousness of many individuals"

What does that say, for YOU, re 'inalienable rights'?

And can you give an example of said "rights".

Think - if that is not too much to ask of you (It is, ed.) - of how rights can be violated and by whom and on what ground?

Are we talking about individuals' differing opinions, and/or desires?

chimera has noted: 'Rights are legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement according to some legal system'.

The underlined is key - rights are not inherent/inalienable, but exist by virtue of being established within a system of law.

Quote:

On what grounds can anyone deny or violate the freedom of thought and conscience?

At least you are an honest debater, unlike our prize fraud, fraudiver.

In my opinion, on the grounds of collective security and wellbeing; "freedom values" ideology worshipped by naturally self-interested individuals results in the richest country in the world tolerating half its population living paycheck to paycheck, the very definition of chronic financial stress. Crippling political hyperpartisanship follows as sure as night follows day.

Quote:

Where does the right to violate them can come from?

The desire for 'fairness', in human affairs.

How does freedom of thought and conscience interfere with or hinder collective security and wellbeing?

By promoting the interests of the (naturally self-interested) individual - who wants to be as rich as he can achieve - above the interests of 'the common welfare' (collective well-being).

Quote:

Your opposing the two, as being antagonistic to each other shows the devil's hoof of your Marxist ideology.

You are missing the obvious: self-interested individuals naturally compete to maximize the available gains for himself, as each sees fit.
Co-operation is subjugated to competition, in a "freedom values" system.

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freediver

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #226 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 10:33am

chimera wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 9:33am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 9:00am:

Are we talking about individuals' differing opinions, and/or desires?

The term 'rights' has many levels from subjective good manners to Trump getting 641 years behind bars. My query is to push into the US language in its major self-defining documents. The fluid concept of the word 'rights' makes for confusion in debate here and also sloppy thinking and self-serving error in US texts.

What does your inability to comprehend the words tell you about the documents?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #227 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 10:51am

freediver wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 9:27am:

What is the grammatical error?

Did you miss it?:

"Fruit (plural) "are" a Granny Smith" (singular) is grammatically wrong.

You would need to say: that particular piece of fruit IS a Granny Smith apple.

See what happens when you refuse to give examples of "rights", and resort - as always - to asking your infamous inane questions?

"Fruit (plural) is/are an apple"; an example of the well-known "fallacy of composition" which conservatives repeatedly fall for, because of their delusional "freedom of the individual" ideology.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #228 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 11:00am

freediver wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 10:33am:

chimera wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 9:33am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 9:00am:

Are we talking about individuals' differing opinions, and/or desires?

The term 'rights' has many levels from subjective good manners to Trump getting 641 years behind bars. My query is to push into the US language in its major self-defining documents. The fluid concept of the word 'rights' makes for confusion in debate here and also sloppy thinking and self-serving error in US texts.

What does your inability to comprehend the words tell you about the documents?

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Regardless of "inability to compehend words", something has gone terribly wrong.....

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freediver

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #229 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 11:42am

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 10:51am:

freediver wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 9:27am:

What is the grammatical error?

Did you miss it?:

"Fruit (plural) "are" a Granny Smith" (singular) is grammatically wrong.

You would need to say: that particular piece of fruit IS a Granny Smith apple.

See what happens when you refuse to give examples of "rights", and resort - as always - to asking your infamous inane questions?

"Fruit (plural) is/are an apple"; an example of the well-known "fallacy of composition" which conservatives repeatedly fall for, because of their delusional "freedom of the individual" ideology.

Was there a grammatical error in what I posted, or just your mangled version of it?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #230 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 1:24pm freediver wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 10:33am: What does your inability to comprehend the words tell you about the documents? The text 'fruit are a type of apple' tells me you don't do plural. Where did I misconstrue the terms 'inalienable' and 'inherent'? Where did you comprehend them better than your plurals?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #231 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 3:37pm Quote: Where did I misconstrue the terms 'inalienable' and 'inherent'? You obviously don't understand what inalienable means.
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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #232 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:20pm I quoted the dictionary meaning. What's fd's meaning for 'inalienable'? (Are inalienable fruit a single apple or the right to Chinese gooseberries..) Then we get to 'inherent'.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #233 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:35pm Quoting is not the same as understanding.
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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #234 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:39pm Go ahead. Say something. Feel free to say whatever you wish to. Start now.
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freediver

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #235 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:47pm

Inalienable means that no matter what you sign, you cannot sell yourself into slavery, because the law does not recognise, accept or enforce such a sale or contract, and without institutionalised backing, genuine slavery cannot exist.

That is the reality we find ourselves in, and it is just as real as that faced by people in the passed who were genuine slaves, and it only becomes reality as a consequence of our shared beliefs.

Hence, rights are an intersubjective reality. Existence is a consequence of shared belief. And no matter how much the CCP tells you that whatever BS system they have in China is a consequence of some old pieces of paper, it is a lie. It is the belief that makes it real. China's borders for example only exist because of the shared belief that they exist, yet they are 100% real.

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« Last Edit: Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:56pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #236 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 5:00pm Please try to find some backing for that. (Don't use the example of UFO aliens, they aren't part of the UN).
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #237 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 5:02pm Only an alien would demand I back it up. To anyone from planet earth, it is bleeding obvious, once it is pointed out.
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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #238 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 5:20pm

chimera wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 5:00pm:

Please try to find some backing for that. (Don't use the example of UFO aliens, they aren't part of the UN).

alienable /ˈeɪlɪənəbl/ adjective LAW
able to be transferred to new ownership.

inalienable /ɪnˈeɪlɪənəbl/ adjective
not subject to being taken away from or given away by the possessor.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #239 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 5:24pm Then a person has an old possession of himself? Who owned that? The person can't give away what possession - himself? The basis of the UN is ending slavery? In 1945?
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