Australian Politics Forum - What is a 'right'?

thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #270 - Oct 7^th, 2023 at 12:47pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 7^th, 2023 at 12:15pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 7^th, 2023 at 11:40am:

freediver wrote on Oct 7^th, 2023 at 11:20am:

Quote:

Nevertheless, your statement IS wrong in logic, as shown above.

Yeah, that was the point.

So.....people are not a subset of people, or specific individuals.

So how to "save makind from the scourge of war"? ,

or

"establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare"...

other than by agreement under global law?

YEAH - and we'll beat the bastards all into line and if any of them step out of line they'll be bombed back into the Dark Ages...

Funny, Putin claims he has available the "Satan-2" bomb - capable of eradicating the US; is he bluffing when he says he will use it to "save" Russia?

Might be smart for all of us to enable the UN to guarantee security, and well-being for everyone under law; even Putin would be on board, if NATO was made redundant.

Quote:

promote the general welfare - still waiting on how.....

See MMT, or even 'common prosperity'... though I'm afraid the CCP might be losing the plot, now that a paranoid US is "decoupling" from China and hence shutting out China's exports; we will know if the CCP is failing soon - if China can't maintain GDP growth above 5%.

Quote:

High-sounding ideas - what are the solutions?

Vote for life not death: there are sufficient resources in the world to eradicate poverty (not the same as 'equality of outcome', the Conservatibe lie).

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Frank Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 43830 Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #271 - Oct 7^th, 2023 at 5:44pm Quote: Apart from the fact you are desperately trying to make me look silly You need no help, parrot, you are doing all the heavy lifting yourself. Good boy.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 83034 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #272 - Oct 7^th, 2023 at 9:25pm What is still standing after all the wrongs have been routed....
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #273 - Oct 7^th, 2023 at 9:27pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 7^th, 2023 at 12:47pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 7^th, 2023 at 12:15pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 7^th, 2023 at 11:40am:

freediver wrote on Oct 7^th, 2023 at 11:20am:

Quote:

Nevertheless, your statement IS wrong in logic, as shown above.

Yeah, that was the point.

So.....people are not a subset of people, or specific individuals.

So how to "save makind from the scourge of war"? ,

or

"establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare"...

other than by agreement under global law?

YEAH - and we'll beat the bastards all into line and if any of them step out of line they'll be bombed back into the Dark Ages...

Funny, Putin claims he has available the "Satan-2" bomb - capable of eradicating the US; is he bluffing when he says he will use it to "save" Russia?

Might be smart for all of us to enable the UN to guarantee security, and well-being for everyone under law; even Putin would be on board, if NATO was made redundant.

Quote:

promote the general welfare - still waiting on how.....

See MMT, or even 'common prosperity'... though I'm afraid the CCP might be losing the plot, now that a paranoid US is "decoupling" from China and hence shutting out China's exports; we will know if the CCP is failing soon - if China can't maintain GDP growth above 5%.

Quote:

High-sounding ideas - what are the solutions?

Vote for life not death: there are sufficient resources in the world to eradicate poverty (not the same as 'equality of outcome', the Conservatibe lie).

Yeah - the UN will wave a damp lettuce leaf at them all...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #274 - Oct 7^th, 2023 at 10:35pm

freediver wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:47pm:

Inalienable means that no matter what you sign, you cannot sell yourself into slavery,

Phew - thanks fraudiver, I was worried I might forget my inalienable "right" to freedom, and sell myself into slavery....

Quote:

..because the law does not recognise, accept or enforce such a sale or contract,

...provided slavery IS illegal...

Quote:

and without institutionalised backing, genuine slavery cannot exist.

Slavery takes many forms, eg wage slavery.

Quote:

That is the reality we find ourselves in, and it is just as real as that faced by people in the passed who were genuine slaves, and it only becomes reality as a consequence of our shared beliefs.

People like Wilberforce had to struggle many years, to ensure the 'belief' was shared.

Quote:

Hence, rights are an intersubjective reality.
Existence is a consequence of shared belief.

Just as past belief in slavery institutionlized the evil of slavery, so the present belief in national sovereignty has institutionlaized the evil of war between nations.

So the "inalienable right" to make war means means the "inalienable right to life" is swept aside.

Quote:

And no matter how much the CCP tells you that whatever BS system they have in China is a consequence of some old pieces of paper, it is a lie. It is the belief that makes it real. China's borders for example only exist because of the shared belief that they exist, yet they are 100% real.

Good to see you at least giving examples of "rights", even as fraudulent as your examples are.

China's constitution elevates collective security and wellbeing above the "rights" of self-interested individuals.

Iow, it implements the goals of the US Constitution (outlined in the Preamble), which a Classical Liberal conception of 'inalienable rights of the (self-interested) individual' can never implement - hence the parlous condition of US 'democracy'.

As for China's borders, they exist as remnants of the Qing dynasty state which collapsed in 1910. [Qing dynasty China at its fullest extent was much larger than the modern state].

Quote:

... the shared belief that (the borders) exist, yet they are 100% real

According to the UN, there is One China, of which Taiwan is a part. An "inter-subjective reality"?

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« Last Edit: Oct 7^th, 2023 at 10:42pm by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #275 - Oct 7^th, 2023 at 10:39pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 7^th, 2023 at 9:27pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 7^th, 2023 at 12:47pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 7^th, 2023 at 12:15pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 7^th, 2023 at 11:40am:

freediver wrote on Oct 7^th, 2023 at 11:20am:

Quote:

Nevertheless, your statement IS wrong in logic, as shown above.

Yeah, that was the point.

So.....people are not a subset of people, or specific individuals.

So how to "save makind from the scourge of war"? ,

or

"establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare"...

other than by agreement under global law?

YEAH - and we'll beat the bastards all into line and if any of them step out of line they'll be bombed back into the Dark Ages...

Funny, Putin claims he has available the "Satan-2" bomb - capable of eradicating the US; is he bluffing when he says he will use it to "save" Russia?

Might be smart for all of us to enable the UN to guarantee security, and well-being for everyone under law; even Putin would be on board, if NATO was made redundant.

Quote:

promote the general welfare - still waiting on how.....

See MMT, or even 'common prosperity'... though I'm afraid the CCP might be losing the plot, now that a paranoid US is "decoupling" from China and hence shutting out China's exports; we will know if the CCP is failing soon - if China can't maintain GDP growth above 5%.

Quote:

High-sounding ideas - what are the solutions?

Vote for life not death: there are sufficient resources in the world to eradicate poverty (not the same as 'equality of outcome', the Conservatibe lie).

Yeah - the UN will wave a damp lettuce leaf at them all...

Not if you vote to get rid of that pesky veto in the UNSC....

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chimera

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #276 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 5:39am

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 7^th, 2023 at 10:35pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:47pm:

Inalienable means that no matter what you sign, you cannot sell yourself into slavery,

Phew - thanks fraudiver, I was worried I might forget my inalienable "right" to freedom, and sell myself into slavery....

If I want to sell myself why should this be denied as a right? The US says rights are inherent, internal. Where does the internal rejection of slavery exist? Maybe it does, but where?

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freediver

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #277 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 8:34am

chimera wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 5:39am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 7^th, 2023 at 10:35pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:47pm:

Inalienable means that no matter what you sign, you cannot sell yourself into slavery,

Phew - thanks fraudiver, I was worried I might forget my inalienable "right" to freedom, and sell myself into slavery....

If I want to sell myself why should this be denied as a right? The US says rights are inherent, internal. Where does the internal rejection of slavery exist? Maybe it does, but where?

Depending on what country you are in, you are probably still free to sell yourself. It sounds like you already have.

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« Last Edit: Oct 8^th, 2023 at 8:46am by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #278 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 8:43am

chimera wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 5:39am:

If I want to sell myself why should this be denied as a right? The US says rights are inherent, internal. Where does the internal rejection of slavery exist? Maybe it does, but where?

The US Constitution declares that certain rights are inalienable, which means you cannot surrender those rights in any way that would be respected by law.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #279 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 9:29am

chimera wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 5:39am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 7^th, 2023 at 10:35pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:47pm:

Inalienable means that no matter what you sign, you cannot sell yourself into slavery,

Phew - thanks fraudiver, I was worried I might forget my inalienable "right" to freedom, and sell myself into slavery....

If I want to sell myself why should this be denied as a right? The US says rights are inherent, internal. Where does the internal rejection of slavery exist? Maybe it does, but where?

In my view, in the cerebral cortex, because slavery implies loss of personal agency which every human desires - which is why men speak of "rights" when they really mean "desire".

[Note the 'desire' in animals (unconscious, non-self-aware) for 'personal agency' is instinctive, the product of the organism's survival instincts.]

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« Last Edit: Oct 8^th, 2023 at 10:16am by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #280 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 9:56am

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 8:34am:

chimera wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 5:39am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 7^th, 2023 at 10:35pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:47pm:

Inalienable means that no matter what you sign, you cannot sell yourself into slavery,

Phew - thanks fraudiver, I was worried I might forget my inalienable "right" to freedom, and sell myself into slavery....

If I want to sell myself why should this be denied as a right? The US says rights are inherent, internal. Where does the internal rejection of slavery exist? Maybe it does, but where?

Depending on what country you are in, you are probably still free to sell yourself. It sounds like you already have.

You of course cannot reply directly to my post; and when you soon discovered your "fruit are a type of apple" argument didn't procede as you intended, you lamely claimed that's what you were trying to show all along...comfirming your status as a prize fraud, a master of deception prepared to go down any false rabbit-hole, 'FTW'.

So we now see your "inter subjective reality" is mere sophistry acting as cover for a recognition that 'inalienable rights' do not exist (contrary to what the Classical Liberals believed).

eg, the Palestinian and Jewish peoples each believe they have an 'inalienable right' to 'self-determination'; but unfortunately your fake 'inter-subjective reality' concept does not exist as a "shared belief", so they are reduced to murdering one another indiscriminately, due to your dominant - but delusional - "freedom values" ideology.

Logic: if there is more than one (instinctively self-interested) individual in the world, freedom - which includes security and well-being for all individuals - must be contained and managed under a regime of law.

"All must submit to rule of law, in order for all to be free": Cicero.

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« Last Edit: Oct 8^th, 2023 at 10:15am by thegreatdivide »

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freediver

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #281 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 10:26am

Quote:

and when you soon discovered your "fruit are a type of apple" argument didn't procede as you intended

It took you several pages to realise there was no grammatical error, then you completely lost the point.

Quote:

So we now see your "inter subjective reality" is mere sophistry

It's what a right is. That's the reality. It's not my fault if you don't like it.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #282 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 10:30am freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 8:34am: Depending on what country you are in, you are probably still free to sell yourself. . Agree. It has been for ever. Rome the city of the empire was about 1/5 slaves. Slavery was normal, as in Greece, etc.
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freediver

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #283 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 10:32am

chimera wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 10:30am:

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 8:34am:

Depending on what country you are in, you are probably still free to sell yourself. .

Agree. It has been for ever. Rome the city of the empire was about 1/5 slaves. Slavery was normal, as in Greece, etc.

But you cannot be enslaved. At least, not legally. Slavery is an absence of choice. The law protects your choice, but you somehow turned that on its head and made it that the law denies you choice.

Is there any word in the English language that you will not fail to comprehend?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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chimera

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #284 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 10:34am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 8:43am:

The US Constitution declares that certain rights are inalienable, which means you cannot surrender those rights in any way that would be respected by law.

It says 'endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,'. They claimed that the rights existed [in law] before 1776. So the US Declaration was in force by Moses, Adam and angels , Amen.

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