Australian Politics Forum - What is a 'right'?

MeisterEckhart

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #300 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:24am

chimera wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:11am:

Frank wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:03am:

And with free will he created them.

That will gave slavery until two centuries ago in UK, US. There were laws in the Bible for Israel's slaves. It was possible to become a slave to pay debts. So technically, Israel has slavery today.
Leviticus 25. 47-52. Deuteronomy 15 12.

The Han Chinese had slaves too. In famine times they ate them.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #301 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:25am

Frank wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:03am:

chimera wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 10:48am:

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 10:45am:

Laws are created by men.

Good boy! You have done well today. Men. Not the Creator. Good.

And with free will he created them.

And also with competitive/self-interested survival instincts which require management by agreed law, to avoid chaos.

Jesus suggested "love one-another"...but instinctive self-interest is a powerful natural force.

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #302 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:27am The Han must have had laws for slave eating. Lawyers get fat.
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chimera

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #303 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:31am

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:25am:

Jesus suggested "love one-another"...but instinctive self-interest is a powerful natural force.

'Jesus tells the story of a rich man who has three slaves. He gives each slave an amount of money, referred to as talents and ...'
The system worked by regulating slavery by agreed laws. Slavery was inherent and inalienable in Israel and in Rome.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #304 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:40am

chimera wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:20am:

Free will exists as slavery exists.

Wrong, you are ignoring my #296.

1. Free will - subject to instinct - exists to varying degrees in all animals including humans.

2. Slavery is an invention of human economic systems.

Quote:

The claim of the Creator's denial of slavery is false.

Correct

Quote:

The claim of human avoidance of slavery is false.

Historically correct - for reasons I explained (technological development: someone had to be forced to work in the salt mines). But the cortex abhors slavery.

Quote:

Jesus said to treat slaves in a loving brotherly way. You are free to do that to your slave or kick him in the backside on Sundays.

I already addressed that in post you ignored (or maybe, hadn't read yet).

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freediver

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #305 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:44am

chimera wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:08am:

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 10:48am:

Where do I say that?

If it's not biology, then where does fd believe it exists?
The UN says 'Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,'.
Belief in an ideal is not proof it already existed.

I guess I need to repeat myself. It is an intersubjective reality. It is not part of our anatomy.

Quote:

the economy would collapse into primitivism without slaves.

No it wouldn't.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #306 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:51am

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:44am:

chimera wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:08am:

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 10:48am:

Where do I say that?

If it's not biology, then where does fd believe it exists?
The UN says 'Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,'.
Belief in an ideal is not proof it already existed.

I guess I need to repeat myself. It is an intersubjective reality. It is not part of our anatomy.

I quess you need to reply to posts which blow your fake 'inter-subjective reality' out of the water, as a propostition which has ANY practical worthwhile outcomes for human affairs.

Where is the "agreed" (!) "inter-subjective reality", in the 'right' to self-determination among the warring Jewish/ Palestinian people?

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freediver

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #307 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:52am

Quote:

I quess you need to reply to posts which blow your fake 'inter-subjective reality' out of the water, as a propostition which has ANY practical worthwhile outcomes for human affairs.

Sophistry.

Whether it has any worthwhile outcomes does not affect whether it is true.

By the way, you will find great value in speaking the truth.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #308 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:58am

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:44am:

No it wouldn't.

Continuing your fraudulent debating style - take one comment out of many from a post, and attach it to a reply to another poster.

So .....people would willingly volunteeer to work in the hellish tin and salt mines, etc. needed to support emperor Hadrian's privileged lifestyle in his magnificent residence?

You don't think too clearly, do you?

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freediver

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #309 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 12:03pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:58am:

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:44am:

No it wouldn't.

Continuing your fraudulent debating style - take one comment out of many from a post, and attach it to a reply to another poster.

So .....people would willingly volunteeer to work in the hellish tin and salt mines, etc. needed to support emperor Hadrian's privileged lifestyle in his magnificent residence?

You don't think too clearly, do you?

They would not volunteer. They would do it for the money. No different from today.

In fact, history has proven that people actually work harder as free men than as slaves.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #310 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 12:10pm

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:52am:

Quote:

I quess you need to reply to posts which blow your fake 'inter-subjective reality' out of the water, as a propostition which has ANY practical worthwhile outcomes for human affairs.

Sophistry.

Says the master of sophistry who wouldn't explain "inter-subjective reality"....

Quote:

Whether it has any worthwhile outcomes does not affect whether it is true.

So you are OK with the - truly - current indiscriminate slaughter - in the name of 'the right(sic) to self determination'...

Quote:

By the way, you will find great value in speaking the truth.

....your conception of which you have proved incapable of defending, as shown by your habit of simply ignoring points that don't fit your delusional conception of "truth"., and "inalienable rights"

Have a shot: to whom does the 'right' to self-dermination belong, and why?

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freediver

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #311 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 12:11pm

Quote:

So you are OK with the - truly - current indiscriminate slaughter - in the name of 'the right(sic) to self determination'...

I am OK with telling the truth. No idea where you got this from.

Quote:

Have a shot: to whom does the 'right' to self-dermination belong, and why?

Your question suggests you still do not understand what a right is.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #312 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 12:20pm

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 12:11pm:

Quote:

So you are OK with the - truly - current indiscriminate slaughter - in the name of 'the right(sic) to self determination'...

I am OK with telling the truth. No idea where you got this from.

Quote:

Have a shot: to whom does the 'right' to self-dermination belong, and why?

Your question suggests you still do not understand what a right is.

Ok, does that mean the 'right to self-determination' doesn't exist; or if it does exist, the right depends on the eye of the beholder?

Or something else.....please show how my observation that the shared (delusional) conception of a what a right is, eg, to self-determination, (as claimed by Israelis AND Jews, in the current war) is flawed, rather than just suggesting that is the case.

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« Last Edit: Oct 8^th, 2023 at 12:25pm by thegreatdivide »

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #313 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 1:05pm thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:40am: Wrong, you are ignoring my #296. We say the same thing.
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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #314 - Oct 8^th, 2023 at 1:09pm freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 11:44am: It is an intersubjective reality. Slavery has been a normal part of history. The right was not generally agreed and so was not reality. The right had not been inherent and inalienable as claimed in 1776 or 1945.
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