Australian Politics Forum - What is a 'right'?

freediver

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #330 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:06am

chimera wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 3:28pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 2:59pm:

And yet we still agree on it, and it is still real as a consequence.

'Self determination' was not mentioned in either the US Declaration or UN Charter. Julius Caesar was himself, as was Genghiz Khan and His Holiness Xi of CCP. They were determined and had no rights to be Americans. They could have sold himself into slavery, right, to make himself some cash. Julius was nearly broke and Crassus put him in debt.

Each had 1 vote and were 100% right.

You do not need a piece of paper to tell you what you believe or what is real. This is something they don't teach you in China.

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chimera

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #331 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:07am

'What human characteristics, attributes stem from free will?'

Slavery. Denial of democracy. Human history.
Internal powers of immunity to disease and of healing an injury are inalienable and inherent. No-one is born with a land-title or is born as a land-title, despite aspiring to home ownership. No-one is born with a legal power in their body to enforce others to allow anything.

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freediver

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #332 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:08am

tickleandrose wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 8:13am:

I think its a very philosophical question. I believe, the concept of right is dependent on perspective, even within democracies. I remember this in a debate I did with my friends back in school days, and it had some really interesting talking points for days.

Lets just create a hypothetical land. One person had lived on, and called that piece of land home for decades. He / she grew up there, and that is all he/she know. Then one day, 19 other people showed up, and then planted a flag on that piece of land, and declare it a land for EVERYONE. They set up, a fair system of democracy. One person one vote. All of sudden that person find him/her self a minority in the land and was powerless. The question is then, how fair is it for the original inhabitant.

Those who are left of the politics, would immediately relate this situation to the plight of Aboringines vs colonialists.

Those who are on the right right of the politics, would immediately relate this situation to the plight of white vs new immigrants.

So, in a summary, the concept of rights are situational, and subjective.

I think you miss the point on this one. The history of what was taken from who is not the same as what rights you have now. It sounds like the newcomers were communists who deny people private property rights.

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chimera

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #333 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:12am

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:06am:

You do not need a piece of paper to tell you what you believe or what is real.

You invent your own history? Revision history, like Stalin's?
Then slavery wasn't a normal part of human history? Democracy was normal for humans since the Creator built a parliament for Adam and his Neanderthal Party?

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freediver

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #334 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:20am

chimera wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:12am:

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:06am:

You do not need a piece of paper to tell you what you believe or what is real.

You invent your own history? Revision history, like Stalin's?
Then slavery wasn't a normal part of human history? Democracy was normal for humans since the Creator built a parliament for Adam and his Neanderthal Party?

We are not talking about history. Do you look in a history book to find out if you believe in human rights? Or if you are free to make your own decision?

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #335 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:28am You're not talking about history. I am. The US says humans are endowed by their Creator with rights. The UN says people are endowed with rights, such as secret vote to parliament. These are from the beginning of human activity. So I ask, who endowed that? Where? When?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #336 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:29am

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 2:59pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 2:20pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 1:27pm:

The right to self determination is real, because we share a belief in it.

But unfortunately, we (people) have differing opinions on how that right is to be realized in practice.

And yet we still agree on it, and it is still real as a consequence.

How can people ("we") be said to "agree" on a (supposed) right, when people resort to murdering another to enforce that right?

Quote:

CCP stooges do not have to understand this for it to be real.

I can't speak for "CCP stooges", but I do know the Chinese constitution promotes collective security and well-being above your delusional "freedom values" 'rights' - which are values based on self-interest, and dressed up as 'rights' which demonstrably lead to the death and destruction we are witnessing in Palesstine and Ukraine.

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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #337 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:45am

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:29am:

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 2:59pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 2:20pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 1:27pm:

The right to self determination is real, because we share a belief in it.

But unfortunately, we (people) have differing opinions on how that right is to be realized in practice.

And yet we still agree on it, and it is still real as a consequence.

How can people ("we") be said to "agree" on a (supposed) right, when people resort to murdering another to enforce that right?

Quote:

CCP stooges do not have to understand this for it to be real.

I can't speak for "CCP stooges", but I do know the Chinese constitution promotes collective security and well-being above your delusional "freedom values" 'rights' - which are values based on self-interest, and dressed up as 'rights' which demonstrably lead to the death and destruction we are witnessing in Palesstine and Ukraine.

So there's no murder in China?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #338 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:51am

chimera wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:28am:

You're not talking about history. I am.

fd is talking about 'freedom values' based on individual self-interest, above the interests of the community.

That tension has. and will always exist.

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The US says humans are endowed by their Creator with rights.

That's the Classical Liberal misunderstanding/non-awareness of the fact that humans, possessing a cortex (unlike animals), have a sense of 'fairness' - a cortex which indeed was endowed by the 'Creator' via evolution...; the UNUDHR describes 30 articles which articulate this sense of 'fairness'.

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The UN says people are endowed with rights, such as secret vote to parliament. These are from the beginning of human activity. So I ask, who endowed that? Where? When?

I say again, and you ignored it: from the evolved human cortex with its capacity for conscious analysis, awareness of self- and others' motivations (and "free-will").

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freediver

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #339 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:54am

chimera wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:28am:

You're not talking about history. I am. The US says humans are endowed by their Creator with rights. The UN says people are endowed with rights, such as secret vote to parliament. These are from the beginning of human activity. So I ask, who endowed that? Where? When?

My apologies, I thought you were responding to what I posted, not playing some kind of confused word association game.

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freediver

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #340 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:55am

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:29am:

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 2:59pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 2:20pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 1:27pm:

The right to self determination is real, because we share a belief in it.

But unfortunately, we (people) have differing opinions on how that right is to be realized in practice.

And yet we still agree on it, and it is still real as a consequence.

How can people ("we") be said to "agree" on a (supposed) right, when people resort to murdering another to enforce that right?

Quote:

CCP stooges do not have to understand this for it to be real.

I can't speak for "CCP stooges", but I do know the Chinese constitution promotes collective security and well-being above your delusional "freedom values" 'rights' - which are values based on self-interest, and dressed up as 'rights' which demonstrably lead to the death and destruction we are witnessing in Palesstine and Ukraine.

We agree on it by virtue of agreeing on it. This is what allows us to say we agree on it. Your confusion does not change that reality.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #341 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:56am

Frank wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:45am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:29am:

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 2:59pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 2:20pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 1:27pm:

The right to self determination is real, because we share a belief in it.

But unfortunately, we (people) have differing opinions on how that right is to be realized in practice.

And yet we still agree on it, and it is still real as a consequence.

How can people ("we") be said to "agree" on a (supposed) right, when people resort to murdering another to enforce that right?

Quote:

CCP stooges do not have to understand this for it to be real.

I can't speak for "CCP stooges", but I do know the Chinese constitution promotes collective security and well-being above your delusional "freedom values" 'rights' - which are values based on self-interest, and dressed up as 'rights' which demonstrably lead to the death and destruction we are witnessing in Palesstine and Ukraine.

So there's no murder in China?

Murder is part of the human condition.

Our task is to minimize murder by examining its causes; and indeed, at the global level, the UN Charter was created to "save mankind from the scourge of war" - war being the ultimate insanity resulting in mass murder by people who don't even know one-another.

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chimera

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #342 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:57am

'the evolved human cortex with its capacity for conscious analysis'.

Aspirations, conscience or agreements are not 'rights'. 'The Creator' is understood to be an entity who creates. That is what's written by Founding Fathers and adapted to UN. In turn, it's the basis for laws in nations with legal powers. Maybe it's mistaken. Or just sloppy. Or nonsense. Whatever. The structure is false in logic and historical reality.

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #343 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:58am freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:54am: of confused word association game. 'Rights' are realities in the world based on the US and UN principles.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #344 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 10:04am

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:55am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 9:29am:

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 2:59pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 2:20pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2023 at 1:27pm:

The right to self determination is real, because we share a belief in it.

But unfortunately, we (people) have differing opinions on how that right is to be realized in practice.

And yet we still agree on it, and it is still real as a consequence.

How can people ("we") be said to "agree" on a (supposed) right, when people resort to murdering another to enforce that right?

Quote:

CCP stooges do not have to understand this for it to be real.

I can't speak for "CCP stooges", but I do know the Chinese constitution promotes collective security and well-being above your delusional "freedom values" 'rights' - which are values based on self-interest, and dressed up as 'rights' which demonstrably lead to the death and destruction we are witnessing in Palesstine and Ukraine.

We agree on it by virtue of agreeing on it. This is what allows us to say we agree on it.

Which is WHY we chooose death over life, in the insanity which is war. An agreement based on delusion is not a good long-term policy.

Quote:

Your confusion does not change that reality.

Your delusion doesn't change that reality.

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