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What is a 'right'? (Read 14123 times)
freediver
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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #345 - Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:14am  
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:04am:
freediver wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 9:55am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 9:29am:
freediver wrote on Oct 8th, 2023 at 2:59pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 8th, 2023 at 2:20pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 8th, 2023 at 1:27pm:
The right to self determination is real, because we share a belief in it.


But unfortunately, we (people)  have differing opinions on how that right is to be realized in practice. 


And yet we still agree on it, and it is still real as a consequence.


How can people ("we")  be said to "agree" on a (supposed) right, when people resort to murdering another to enforce that right?

Quote:
CCP stooges do not have to understand this for it to be real.


I can't speak for "CCP stooges", but I do know the Chinese constitution promotes collective security and well-being above your delusional "freedom values"  'rights' - which are values based on self-interest, and dressed up as 'rights' which demonstrably lead to the death and destruction we are witnessing in Palesstine and Ukraine.


We agree on it by virtue of agreeing on it. This is what allows us to say we agree on it.


Which is WHY we chooose death over life, in the insanity which is war. An agreement based on delusion is not a good long-term policy. 

Quote:
Your confusion does not change that reality.


Your delusion doesn't change that reality.


No we don't. Can you name a war in which both sides were lead by democracies?
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thegreatdivide
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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #346 - Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:20am  
chimera wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 9:57am:
'the evolved human cortex with its capacity for conscious analysis'.

Aspirations, conscience or agreements are not 'rights'.


You and I agree on that: aspirations arise in the cortex, 'rights' are merely aspirations.

Quote:
'The Creator' is understood to be an entity who creates.



Yes, that's one of the great conumdrums: did the Creator  know if a conscious cortex would evolve (after c.13 billion years) in His universe of created unconscious atoms? 

Quote:
That is what's written by Founding Fathers and adapted to UN. In turn, it's the basis for laws in nations with legal powers. Maybe it's mistaken.


It IS mistaken to confuse aspirations with "inalienable rights". 

Quote:
Or just sloppy.


I don't think the misunderstanding is sloppy, it took time to discover the illusion re the flat earth, and geocentric solar system. 


Quote:
Or nonsense. Whatever. The structure is false in logic and historical reality.



Misunderstanding of an illusion should not be described as nonsense. 

And fortunately, the aspiration for a peaceful, secure, and propserous world remains.
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chimera
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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #347 - Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:26am  
freediver wrote on Oct 8th, 2023 at 1:27pm:
The right to self determination is real, because we share a belief in it. .

Also referred to as a fairy bush, the tree so powerful it stalled a planned motorway for 10 years while the county and thoroughly annoyed engineers devised a way to construct the highway to go around, or maybe beat around the bush.
https://europe.stripes.com/travel/2019-09-05/the-fairy-tree:-ireland%E2%80%99s-u...
The County Clare Council had it written in the construction contract the tree had to be protected. Until then, the fairies had no rights, probably because they don't exist, believe me.
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« Last Edit: Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:44am by chimera »  
 
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chimera
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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #348 - Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:33am  
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:20am:
aspirations arise in the cortex, 'rights' are merely aspirations.

I don't think the misunderstanding is sloppy, it took time to discover the illusion re the flat earth, and geocentric solar system. 

'Rights' are legal powers which put Trump behind bars or your tax money into the Treasury.
The UN Charter was signed in 1948, using English and radioactive fallout from Hiroshima. e=mc^ which flattened the earth using the US dollar which said 'In God we trust'. (In English).
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thegreatdivide
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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #349 - Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:43am  
freediver wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:14am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:04am:
freediver wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 9:55am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 9:29am:
freediver wrote on Oct 8th, 2023 at 2:59pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 8th, 2023 at 2:20pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 8th, 2023 at 1:27pm:
The right to self determination is real, because we share a belief in it.


But unfortunately, we (people)  have differing opinions on how that right is to be realized in practice. 


And yet we still agree on it, and it is still real as a consequence.


How can people ("we")  be said to "agree" on a (supposed) right, when people resort to murdering another to enforce that right?

Quote:
CCP stooges do not have to understand this for it to be real.


I can't speak for "CCP stooges", but I do know the Chinese constitution promotes collective security and well-being above your delusional "freedom values"  'rights' - which are values based on self-interest, and dressed up as 'rights' which demonstrably lead to the death and destruction we are witnessing in Palesstine and Ukraine.


We agree on it by virtue of agreeing on it. This is what allows us to say we agree on it.


Which is WHY we chooose death over life, in the insanity which is war. An agreement based on delusion is not a good long-term policy. 

Quote:
Your confusion does not change that reality.


Your delusion doesn't change that reality.


No we don't. Can you name a war in which both sides were lead by democracies?


The "democracy" which was intent on enforcing its imperial hegemony  to the detriment of other aspirants for empire (aspirations for exploitative empire being  inadmissible, whoever aspires to them)  eg Britain vis a vis Germany in 1914,  is equally responsible for the insanity of the conflagration which erupted in 1914.
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freediver
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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #350 - Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:45am  
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:43am:
freediver wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:14am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:04am:
freediver wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 9:55am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 9:29am:
freediver wrote on Oct 8th, 2023 at 2:59pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 8th, 2023 at 2:20pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 8th, 2023 at 1:27pm:
The right to self determination is real, because we share a belief in it.


But unfortunately, we (people)  have differing opinions on how that right is to be realized in practice. 


And yet we still agree on it, and it is still real as a consequence.


How can people ("we")  be said to "agree" on a (supposed) right, when people resort to murdering another to enforce that right?

Quote:
CCP stooges do not have to understand this for it to be real.


I can't speak for "CCP stooges", but I do know the Chinese constitution promotes collective security and well-being above your delusional "freedom values"  'rights' - which are values based on self-interest, and dressed up as 'rights' which demonstrably lead to the death and destruction we are witnessing in Palesstine and Ukraine.


We agree on it by virtue of agreeing on it. This is what allows us to say we agree on it.


Which is WHY we chooose death over life, in the insanity which is war. An agreement based on delusion is not a good long-term policy. 

Quote:
Your confusion does not change that reality.


Your delusion doesn't change that reality.


No we don't. Can you name a war in which both sides were lead by democracies?


The "democracy" which was intent on enforcing its imperial hegemony  to the detriment of other aspirants for empire (aspirations for exploitative empire being  inadmissible, whoever aspires to them)  eg Britain vis a vis Germany in 1914,  is equally responsible for the insanity of the conflagration which erupted in 1914.


Can you name a war in which both sides were lead by democracies?
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thegreatdivide
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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #351 - Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:51am  
chimera wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:33am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:20am:
aspirations arise in the cortex, 'rights' are merely aspirations.

I don't think the misunderstanding is sloppy, it took time to discover the illusion re the flat earth, and geocentric solar system. 


'Rights' are legal powers


Yes, legal powers designed to achieve certain outcomes.

Quote:
which put Trump behind bars or your tax money into the Treasury.


The specific laws enancted within a legal system might not necessarily achieve the intended outcomes, much less "the common welfare" and "social tranquility" aspired to, in the US Preamble to the Constitution.  


Quote:
The UN Charter was signed in 1948, using English and radioactive fallout from Hiroshima. e=mc^ which flattened the earth using the US dollar which said 'In God we trust'. (In English).


Such is the course of human scientific  discovery, combined with individual self-interest, a powerful agent in human affairs. 
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« Last Edit: Oct 9th, 2023 at 11:12am by thegreatdivide »  
 
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thegreatdivide
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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #352 - Oct 9th, 2023 at 11:08am  
freediver wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:45am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:43am:
freediver wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:14am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:04am:
freediver wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 9:55am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 9:29am:
freediver wrote on Oct 8th, 2023 at 2:59pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 8th, 2023 at 2:20pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 8th, 2023 at 1:27pm:
The right to self determination is real, because we share a belief in it.


But unfortunately, we (people)  have differing opinions on how that right is to be realized in practice. 


And yet we still agree on it, and it is still real as a consequence.


How can people ("we")  be said to "agree" on a (supposed) right, when people resort to murdering another to enforce that right?

Quote:
CCP stooges do not have to understand this for it to be real.


I can't speak for "CCP stooges", but I do know the Chinese constitution promotes collective security and well-being above your delusional "freedom values"  'rights' - which are values based on self-interest, and dressed up as 'rights' which demonstrably lead to the death and destruction we are witnessing in Palesstine and Ukraine.


We agree on it by virtue of agreeing on it. This is what allows us to say we agree on it.


Which is WHY we chooose death over life, in the insanity which is war. An agreement based on delusion is not a good long-term policy. 

Quote:
Your confusion does not change that reality.


Your delusion doesn't change that reality.


No we don't. Can you name a war in which both sides were lead by democracies?


The "democracy" which was intent on enforcing its imperial hegemony  to the detriment of other aspirants for empire (aspirations for exploitative empire being  inadmissible, whoever aspires to them)  eg Britain vis a vis Germany in 1914,  is equally responsible for the insanity of the conflagration which erupted in 1914.


Can you name a war in which both sides were lead by democracies?


The US civil war.

It takes two sides to tango - join in the insanity of war.

Note: Hamas' well-planned attack on Israel is caused by the ongoing Israeli refusal to implement UN 181 and 242
(and UN inability to defend its rulings) ...see how your "inter-subjective reality" works? 
 
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chimera
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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #353 - Oct 9th, 2023 at 11:31am  
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:51am:
Such is the course of human scientific  discovery, combined with individual self-interest, a powerful agent in human affairs. 

Then in 1948 the world leaders knew exactly what they intended to say. In 2023, they haven't amended the Charter or changed from quoting the US Declaration.
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freediver
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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #354 - Oct 9th, 2023 at 11:45am  
Quote:
The US civil war.


How many democratic elections were held in the confederacy?
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thegreatdivide
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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #355 - Oct 9th, 2023 at 1:47pm  
freediver wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 11:45am:
Quote:
The US civil war.


How many democratic elections were held in the confederacy?


Before the war? As many as were held in the union.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #356 - Oct 9th, 2023 at 1:53pm  
chimera wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 11:31am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 10:51am:
Such is the course of human scientific  discovery, combined with individual self-interest, a powerful agent in human affairs. 

Then in 1948 the world leaders knew exactly what they intended to say. In 2023, they haven't amended the Charter or changed from quoting the US Declaration.


No; unlike you and me, world leaders actually still believe in the illusion of 'inalienable rights'. That's why the 'rules of war' (see the Geneva convention) still exist, despite the UN Charter: ......."in order to save mankind from the scourge of war".....

Today Albo spoke of an "unprovoked attack by Hamas"; showing his complete ignorance of the psychology of an oppressed ghetto, in the "world's largest open air prison", namely, Gaza.

Very similar to the Nazi oppression of the  jewish ghetto in Warsaw in WW2.   
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« Last Edit: Oct 9th, 2023 at 2:04pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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chimera
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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #357 - Oct 9th, 2023 at 3:10pm  
That's a neat point. It's like saying the right to drive a car is permanent and when your government bans you from driving, here are rules for your skateboard.

So we get double talk. When disability patients are abused and assaulted, the institution gives the required reply :'the care of our patients is always our top priority'. Problem solved. Such talk seems to be inalienable, inherent and disabled.
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freediver
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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #358 - Oct 9th, 2023 at 3:10pm  
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 1:47pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 9th, 2023 at 11:45am:
Quote:
The US civil war.


How many democratic elections were held in the confederacy?


Before the war? As many as were held in the union.


No, confused one. While it existed. How many democratic elections were held in the confederacy?
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chimera
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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #359 - Oct 9th, 2023 at 3:15pm  
1 and he got 97.0% vote. That looks suspiciously like Kim Jong-Un's popularity but anyway we'll let him have it. He had bullets, a Creator and 113 slaves.
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