Australian Politics Forum - What is a 'right'?

chimera

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 10507
armidale
Gender: male

Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #375 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 5:50pm

We keep trying but fd doesn't have democracy. Greek adult male citizens of Athens took a major and direct part in the management of the affairs of state, such as declaring war, voting supplies, dispatching diplomatic missions and ratifying treaties. Any citizen could speak to the assembly. If fd waltzes up to the Senate and starts burbling he will be frog marched out, with Frank next.

Back to top

IP Logged

Frank

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 43828
Gender: male

Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #376 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 5:52pm

chimera wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 5:31pm:

'We have documented examples of at least fifty-two Greek city-states including Corinth, Megara, and Syracuse that also had democratic regimes during part of their history. According to Ober (2015), the proportion of Greek city-states with democratic regimes gradually increased from the mid 6th century BC to the end of the 4th century BC, when perhaps half of the one-thousand Greek city-states in existence at the time had democratic regimes.'
Ober, Josiah (2015). The Rise and Fall of Classical Greece. Princeton University Press.
The US Founding Fathers wrote about Greek city state wars.

In antiquity, rule by the demos meant NOT rule by kings or by oligarchs.
It did not mean representative, liberal democracy as we understand it today.

That Greco - Roman history is instructive for ANYONE formulating a constitution is too obvious to anyone.

Back to top

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #377 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 5:57pm Quote: Greek adult male citizens of Athens took a major and direct part in the management of the affairs of state What percentage of the population was allowed to vote? If you set the bar that low, isn't it like saying China is already a democracy?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #378 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 6:02pm 'Greek adult male citizens of Athens took a major and direct part in the management of the affairs of state, such as declaring war,' This is the issue about whether democracy can cause war. You two failed to stand up in the Representatives and investigate Scott Morrison. The blame for his actions is largely on you.
Back to top	« Last Edit: Oct 9^th, 2023 at 6:12pm by chimera » IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #379 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 6:12pm How many times did Athens go to war with itself?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #380 - Oct 9^th, 2023 at 6:14pm It didn't grow cotton or play the banjo.
Back to top	IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 12177
Gender: male

Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #381 - Oct 10^th, 2023 at 9:30am

Frank wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 5:17pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 4:22pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 3:56pm:

So you can only identify a single war in which both sides were lead by a democracy, a civil war,

Off the top of my head, yes; but this in one of the world's newest democracies at the time, shattering your illusion of "shared belief" in "inter-subjective reality".

Democracy hadn't existed in most of the world up to the US constitution (1789), and most of Europe up to 1918 since classical Athen's demise , so it's a big call to even identify a war between a "democracy" and ANY other nation...

Quote:

and in this example one side only had a single election during it's existence, and the guy who won it ran without an opponent.

Irrelevant. We are talking about how/why US democracy fell apart - with catastrophic outcomes. Elections are usually restricted in war.

This is nonsense, parrot.

Classical Athenian democracy was nothing like modern liberal democracy.
Nor the slave-owning Confederacy.

The blindness of the 'freedom values' ideologue on full display.

chimera has rightly contrasted Athenian democracy with your "modern liberal democracy":

Greek adult male citizens of Athens took a major and direct part in the management of the affairs of state, such as declaring war, voting supplies, dispatching diplomatic missions and ratifying treaties. Any citizen could speak to the assembly.

...and chimera has indicated what will happen to you and fd if you try to exercise your illusionary democratic rights within this "modern liberal democracy" :

"If fd waltzes up to the Senate and starts burbling he will be frog marched out, with Frank next.

Give a it a try; if you open your mouth in the Reps or Senate visitors' gallery, you will be thrown out.

As for the (greed-based) slave owning Confederacy, it developed as part of the US, under the "democratic" US Constitution based on "inalienable rights"......

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #382 - Oct 10^th, 2023 at 9:45am Quote: chimera has rightly contrasted Athenian democracy with your "modern liberal democracy": He tried to pass it off as being the same. Then you both kind of lost the plot.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Frank

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 43828
Gender: male

Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #383 - Oct 10^th, 2023 at 9:50am

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 10^th, 2023 at 9:30am:

Frank wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 5:17pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 4:22pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 3:56pm:

So you can only identify a single war in which both sides were lead by a democracy, a civil war,

Off the top of my head, yes; but this in one of the world's newest democracies at the time, shattering your illusion of "shared belief" in "inter-subjective reality".

Democracy hadn't existed in most of the world up to the US constitution (1789), and most of Europe up to 1918 since classical Athen's demise , so it's a big call to even identify a war between a "democracy" and ANY other nation...

Quote:

and in this example one side only had a single election during it's existence, and the guy who won it ran without an opponent.

Irrelevant. We are talking about how/why US democracy fell apart - with catastrophic outcomes. Elections are usually restricted in war.

This is nonsense, parrot.

Classical Athenian democracy was nothing like modern liberal democracy.
Nor the slave-owning Confederacy.

The blindness of the 'freedom values' ideologue on full display.

chimera has rightly contrasted Athenian democracy with your "modern liberal democracy":

Greek adult male citizens of Athens took a major and direct part in the management of the affairs of state, such as declaring war, voting supplies, dispatching diplomatic missions and ratifying treaties. Any citizen could speak to the assembly.

...and chimera has indicated what will happen to you and fd if you try to exercise your illusionary democratic rights within this "modern liberal democracy" :

"If fd waltzes up to the Senate and starts burbling he will be frog marched out, with Frank next.

Give a it a try; if you open your mouth in the Reps or Senate visitors' gallery, you will be thrown out.

As for the (greed-based) slave owning Confederacy, it developed as part of the US, under the "democratic" US Constitution based on "inalienable rights"......

Why can't we be like ancient Athens in the 5th century BC?? Why, oh, why??!!

Cry

Back to top

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

IP Logged

chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #384 - Oct 10^th, 2023 at 9:57am Because they were fair dinkum.
Back to top	IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 12177
Gender: male

Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #385 - Oct 10^th, 2023 at 10:03am

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 5:01pm:

Quote:

Off the top of my head, yes; but this in one of the world's newest democracies at the time, shattering your illusion of "shared belief" in "inter-subjective reality".

Again, you are confused. Most people have never heard of intersubjective reality, so it would be hard for them to believe in it.

Fraudiver, the depths of your fraudulence are unfathomable, even to me who understands your delusions which are based on illusions.

I asked for some examples of 'alienable rights', you obfuscated with a description of what rights are, namely,

"inter-subjective reality" in association with "shared belief".

Now you are saying I am confused because "most people have never heard of intersubjective reality, so it would be hard for them to believe in it."

Fair dinkum, how low can a fraud go: the issue is belief in "inalienable rights", NOT belief in "inter-subjective reality" ...which indeed few have heard of, and which you insisted I google, to find out what the term means (which I did, finding a definition you agreed with).

Quote:

TGD

Democracy hadn't existed in most of the world up to the US constitution (1789), and most of Europe up to 1918 since classical Athen's demise , so it's a big call to even identify a war between a "democracy" and ANY other nation

...

How many wars have there been since 1789?

Maybe low IQ is part of your problem as well ideological blindness. The issue is not how many wars have been fought since 1789, but how many democracies have existed to be involved in wars.

Numerous wars have been fought, while so few democracies have existed to engage in war; meanwhile, one of the newest democracies since 1789 (indeed, since classical Athens) made war against itself, 6 decades after its establishment!

All courtesy of the ideological catastrophe based on your illusionary 'inalienable rights'.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #386 - Oct 10^th, 2023 at 10:13am Quote: I asked for some examples of 'alienable rights', you obfuscated with a description of what rights are, namely, The right to a fair trial.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 12177
Gender: male

Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #387 - Oct 10^th, 2023 at 10:16am

Frank wrote on Oct 10^th, 2023 at 9:50am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 10^th, 2023 at 9:30am:

Frank wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 5:17pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 4:22pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2023 at 3:56pm:

So you can only identify a single war in which both sides were lead by a democracy, a civil war,

Off the top of my head, yes; but this in one of the world's newest democracies at the time, shattering your illusion of "shared belief" in "inter-subjective reality".

Democracy hadn't existed in most of the world up to the US constitution (1789), and most of Europe up to 1918 since classical Athen's demise , so it's a big call to even identify a war between a "democracy" and ANY other nation...

Quote:

and in this example one side only had a single election during it's existence, and the guy who won it ran without an opponent.

Irrelevant. We are talking about how/why US democracy fell apart - with catastrophic outcomes. Elections are usually restricted in war.

This is nonsense, parrot.

Classical Athenian democracy was nothing like modern liberal democracy.
Nor the slave-owning Confederacy.

The blindness of the 'freedom values' ideologue on full display.

chimera has rightly contrasted Athenian democracy with your "modern liberal democracy":

Greek adult male citizens of Athens took a major and direct part in the management of the affairs of state, such as declaring war, voting supplies, dispatching diplomatic missions and ratifying treaties. Any citizen could speak to the assembly.

...and chimera has indicated what will happen to you and fd if you try to exercise your illusionary democratic rights within this "modern liberal democracy" :

"If fd waltzes up to the Senate and starts burbling he will be frog marched out, with Frank next.

Give a it a try; if you open your mouth in the Reps or Senate visitors' gallery, you will be thrown out.

As for the (greed-based) slave owning Confederacy, it developed as part of the US, under the "democratic" US Constitution based on "inalienable rights"......

Why can't we be like ancient Athens in the 5th century BC?? Why, oh, why??!!

Population size is one reason - again not the issue, which at the instant is democracy based on 'inaliebable rights', because fd wanted an example of "democracies" going to war against one-another.

Do try to keep up with the actual argument, Frank.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Oct 10^th, 2023 at 10:28am by thegreatdivide »

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #388 - Oct 10^th, 2023 at 10:20am Are you saying you want to have slaves and deny most people the right to vote? China is most of the way there already.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #389 - Oct 10^th, 2023 at 10:26am England and Scotland as democracies were right to fight between the 1300-1500s. England denied that Scots are human but are alien. Scots said tha thu a' muc cù boireann. Their slaves agreed.
Back to top	IP Logged