Australian Politics Forum - What is a 'right'?

thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #390 - Oct 10^th, 2023 at 10:42am

freediver wrote on Oct 10^th, 2023 at 10:13am:

Quote:

I asked for some examples of 'alienable rights', you obfuscated with a description of what rights are, namely,

The right to a fair trial.

At last, well done (...it's like pulling teeth...)

A "fair" trial is highly desirable (to the cortex brain, the reptilian brain doesn't give a rat's a**e. ), but is not an 'inalienable right', because it is often abused by political considerations, even within legal authorities claiming allegiance to inalieanable individual rights, eg, the gross abuse of Assange's liberty.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #391 - Oct 10^th, 2023 at 10:59am

freediver wrote on Oct 10^th, 2023 at 10:20am:

Are you saying you want to have slaves and deny most people the right to vote?

No; I am saying the quicker we understand "rights" do not exist as objective reality, the better for successful governance of the world....

Slavery is repugnant a priori, whereas the "right to vote" (apart from being an illusion) is more complex - the blind leading the blind? eg, :"If you don't know, vote no....": heaven help us!

Quote:

China is most of the way there already.

No; China is moving away from slavery, because the CCP is subject to popular sentiment and 'social license', as the economy grows and maintains its goal of "common prosperity" (despised by Western "freedom values" ** barbarians, **as opposed to actual freedom within common prosperity).

No doubt the covid restrictions would still be in force, if the CCP had ignored public protest.

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« Last Edit: Oct 10^th, 2023 at 11:05am by thegreatdivide »

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freediver

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #392 - Oct 10^th, 2023 at 11:20am

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 10^th, 2023 at 10:42am:

freediver wrote on Oct 10^th, 2023 at 10:13am:

Quote:

I asked for some examples of 'alienable rights', you obfuscated with a description of what rights are, namely,

The right to a fair trial.

At last, well done (...it's like pulling teeth...)

A "fair" trial is highly desirable (to the cortex brain, the reptilian brain doesn't give a rat's a**e. ), but is not an 'inalienable right', because it is often abused by political considerations, even within legal authorities claiming allegiance to inalieanable individual rights, eg, the gross abuse of Assange's liberty.

Again, you are confused about what inalienable right means.

Quote:

No; I am saying the quicker we understand "rights" do not exist as objective reality, the better for successful governance of the world....

Would you accept that they exist as an intersubjective reality?

Do you think I am lying to you when I say that I am not a slave, I do not own slaves, and they are entirely missing from my reality? But that they were also very real for many people in the past?

Quote:

No; China is moving away from slavery

I meant, only a tiny minority have the right to vote. Less than in ancient Athens.

Quote:

"If you don't know, vote no....": heaven help us!

Your disapproval of how others vote, and democracy in general, is not the same thing as them not having the right to vote.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #393 - Oct 10^th, 2023 at 11:26am chimera wrote on Oct 10^th, 2023 at 10:26am: England and Scotland as democracies were right to fight between the 1300-1500s. England denied that Scots are human but are alien. Scots said tha thu a' muc cù boireann. Their slaves agreed. When do you think they became democracies?
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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #394 - Oct 10^th, 2023 at 11:52am When they had armoured knights, cannon, star mace and pikers. sgrios an sasain
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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #395 - Oct 10^th, 2023 at 11:53am

freediver wrote on Oct 10^th, 2023 at 11:20am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 10^th, 2023 at 10:42am:

freediver wrote on Oct 10^th, 2023 at 10:13am:

Quote:

I asked for some examples of 'alienable rights', you obfuscated with a description of what rights are, namely,

The right to a fair trial.

At last, well done (...it's like pulling teeth...)

A "fair" trial is highly desirable (to the cortex brain, the reptilian brain doesn't give a rat's a**e. ), but is not an 'inalienable right', because it is often abused by political considerations, even within legal authorities claiming allegiance to inalieanable individual rights, eg, the gross abuse of Assange's liberty.

Again, you are confused about what inalienable right means.

Please tell us what it means - this time other than with resort to terms like "inter subjective reality" which most people have not heard of, as you said.

I am saying the quicker we understand "rights" do not exist as objective reality, the better for successful governance of the world....

Quote:

Would you accept that they exist as an intersubjective reality?

Yes, and I have already explained why they are are both subjective and illusion.

Quote:

Do you think I am lying to you when I say that I am not a slave, I do not own slaves,

No

Quote:

and they are entirely missing from my reality?

Your subjective reality (subjective by definition - it's YOUR reality) is the problem here; you ARE content with both wage slavery, and poisonous welfare slavery.

Quote:

But that they were also very real for many people in the past?

Yes.

Quote:

TGD

No; China is moving away from slavery

I meant, only a tiny minority have the right to vote. Less than in ancient Athens.

So what? There is no "right" to vote; and a one-party meritocracy dedicated to 'common prosperity' has the capacity - if it is clever, that is - to create "a prosperous socialist society in all respects" (the goal expected to be realized in the 2049 centenary celebrations of the CCP government in China).

Quote:

TGD: "If you don't know, vote no....": heaven help us!"

Your disapproval of how others vote, and democracy in general, is not the same thing as them not having the right to vote.

True, except as I said, the "right" to vote is an illusion based on blind (ie, instinctive reptilian-brain directed) self-interest; and the inability of the democracies to deal with endless wars and entrenched poverty will only become increasingly apparent, as the global economy buckles under AGW climate change, global pollution, and crippling national debt, including under democratic governance.

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« Last Edit: Oct 10^th, 2023 at 11:59am by thegreatdivide »

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #396 - Oct 10^th, 2023 at 1:31pm Quote: Please tell us what it means - this time other than with resort to terms like "inter subjective reality" which most people have not heard of, as you said. What is wrong with my previous explanation? You are welcome to google any terms you do not understand.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #397 - Oct 11^th, 2023 at 9:59am

freediver wrote on Oct 10^th, 2023 at 1:31pm:

Quote:

Please tell us what it means - this time other than with resort to terms like "inter subjective reality" which most people have not heard of, as you said.

What is wrong with my previous explanation?

You are welcome to google any terms you do not understand.

Fraudiver reverting to type.....

"inter-subjective reality" is understood by few, as you said, and yet you took pages to finally offer an example eg the "right to democracy".

Patently there is no such right, just a self-interested (reptilian brain directed) desire to influence government to enable greedy individuals to claim as much of the nation's output for themselves, without regard to the common welfare. The desire for 'benevolent authority' (as opposed to the greed-based 'invisible hand' market) is equally legitimate.

So there's what is wrong with your previous explanation.

Basically, 'freedom values' versus the common welfare' (not 'equality of outcome', the conservative lie)

But the 'freedom values' delusion is difficult to eradicate... it's aka the human condition (ego, id, versus reason...).

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freediver

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #398 - Oct 11^th, 2023 at 12:21pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 11^th, 2023 at 9:59am:

freediver wrote on Oct 10^th, 2023 at 1:31pm:

Quote:

Please tell us what it means - this time other than with resort to terms like "inter subjective reality" which most people have not heard of, as you said.

What is wrong with my previous explanation?

You are welcome to google any terms you do not understand.

Fraudiver reverting to type.....

"inter-subjective reality" is understood by few, as you said, and yet you took pages to finally offer an example eg the "right to democracy".

I answered the question "what is a right" on the first page of this thread. No-one asked for any further explanation, though you and chimera kept trying to hold up your ignorance as some kind of insight.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #399 - Oct 11^th, 2023 at 12:24pm freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2023 at 12:21pm: I answered . No-one asked for any further explanation, That's right.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #400 - Oct 11^th, 2023 at 5:16pm

freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2023 at 12:21pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 11^th, 2023 at 9:59am:

freediver wrote on Oct 10^th, 2023 at 1:31pm:

Quote:

Please tell us what it means - this time other than with resort to terms like "inter subjective reality" which most people have not heard of, as you said.

What is wrong with my previous explanation?

You are welcome to google any terms you do not understand.

Fraudiver reverting to type.....

"inter-subjective reality" is understood by few, as you said, and yet you took pages to finally offer an example eg the "right to democracy".

I answered the question "what is a right" on the first page of this thread. No-one asked for any further explanation, though you and chimera kept trying to hold up your ignorance as some kind of insight.

I asked, have you forgotten already? And I referenced and critiqued your #4 and #8, which is why we ended up discussing your illusory "intersubjective reality".

And of course I easily demolish every manifestation of your pet illusory 'rights' , whenever you finally dare to give a (supposed) example.

which is why you have reverted to form, insisting I google your illusionay concept again.

fd: "What is wrong with my previous explanation?"

...rather than presenting an example which will fly.

Like I said, I'm roasting you like a pig on a spit, whether you attempt to give an example, or hide behind obfuscations like "if you didn't understand, google it".

This is getting embarassing; roasting a deluded "freedom values" ideologue who patently is unable to defend his position.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #401 - Oct 12^th, 2023 at 11:23am

Interesting example of Conservative argumenation re defending the Constitution

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/trump-tells-court-he-had-no-duty-to-support...

Trump tells court he had no duty to 'support' the Constitution as president

""The Presidential oath, which the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment surely knew, requires the President to swear to 'preserve, protect and defend' the Constitution — not to 'support' the Constitution," said the filing by Trump's attorneys. "Because the framers chose to define the group of people subject to Section Three by an oath to 'support' the Constitution of the United States, and not by an oath to 'preserve, protect and defend' the Constitution, the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment never intended for it to apply to the President."
The former president has already tried to remove the 14th Amendment case to federal court, but this motion was denied..

...oh dear, such are the outcomes when tricky lawyers deal with 'inter-subjective reality'; 'support' (a thought) isn't the same as 'preserve, protect and defend' (an action).....

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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #402 - Oct 12^th, 2023 at 2:08pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 11^th, 2023 at 9:59am:

freediver wrote on Oct 10^th, 2023 at 1:31pm:

Quote:

Please tell us what it means - this time other than with resort to terms like "inter subjective reality" which most people have not heard of, as you said.

What is wrong with my previous explanation?

You are welcome to google any terms you do not understand.

Fraudiver reverting to type.....

"inter-subjective reality" is understood by few, as you said, and yet you took pages to finally offer an example eg the "right to democracy".

Patently there is no such right, just a self-interested (reptilian brain directed) desire to influence government to enable greedy individuals to claim as much of the nation's output for themselves, without regard to the common welfare. The desire for 'benevolent authority' (as opposed to the greed-based 'invisible hand' market) is equally legitimate.

So there's what is wrong with your previous explanation.

Basically, 'freedom values' versus the common welfare' (not 'equality of outcome', the conservative lie)

But the 'freedom values' delusion is difficult to eradicate... it's aka the human condition (ego, id, versus reason...).

How did the 'reptilian brain' discover 'common welfare'? Why did the 'welfare state' developed only in liberal democratic capitalist countries?

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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chimera

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #403 - Oct 12^th, 2023 at 4:28pm

freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2023 at 12:21pm:

I answered the question "what is a right" on the first page of this thread.

There are more than one answer. For example,'What is a man?'
1) Jim Smith. he lives next door.
2) homo sapiens a bipedal omnivore.

A 'right' is claimed to be 'inherent' and 'endowed' inside a man.
It is legally enforced only when it's a law. So the claim must be that people are born with a nation's law inside.

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #404 - Oct 12^th, 2023 at 4:31pm Frank wrote on Oct 12^th, 2023 at 2:08pm: Why did the 'welfare state' developed only in liberal democratic capitalist countries? It didn't
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