Australian Politics Forum - What is a 'right'?

Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #420 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 9:54am

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 9:52am:

Frank wrote on Oct 12^th, 2023 at 9:26pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 12^th, 2023 at 5:41pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 12^th, 2023 at 2:08pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 11^th, 2023 at 9:59am:

freediver wrote on Oct 10^th, 2023 at 1:31pm:

Quote:

Please tell us what it means - this time other than with resort to terms like "inter subjective reality" which most people have not heard of, as you said.

What is wrong with my previous explanation?

You are welcome to google any terms you do not understand.

Fraudiver reverting to type.....

"inter-subjective reality" is understood by few, as you said, and yet you took pages to finally offer an example eg the "right to democracy".

Patently there is no such right, just a self-interested (reptilian brain directed) desire to influence government to enable greedy individuals to claim as much of the nation's output for themselves, without regard to the common welfare. The desire for 'benevolent authority' (as opposed to the greed-based 'invisible hand' market) is equally legitimate.

So there's what is wrong with your previous explanation.

Basically, 'freedom values' versus the common welfare' (not 'equality of outcome', the conservative lie)

But the 'freedom values' delusion is difficult to eradicate... it's aka the human condition (ego, id, versus reason...).

How did the 'reptilian brain' discover 'common welfare'? Why did the 'welfare state' developed only in liberal democratic capitalist countries?

Good to see your cerebral neurons attempting to communicate with their neigbours.....(even if barely successfully...)

The repitilian brain didn't "discover" anything, because it is unconscious; it evolved as instinct, to assist the organism to survive instinctively.

1. Now, the "welfare state" is of course a creation of the developed human cortex brain, no other animal concerns itself with 'welfare states'.

2. Roman emperors ensured free bread and oil etc for Rome's poor citizens (most of the population).

You are ****ing monomaniacal ijit.

Frank, ad hominems are not debate, let's see if you can offer any more reasoned refutation.

You talk gibberish.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #421 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 10:08am

Frank wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 9:20am:

So there is no such thing as freedom or justice or honesty or personal autonomy. 'Overstated ideals'.

The problem with that list is they are subject to interpretation by the beholder, which is why you confuse/conflate illusory "rights'" with any and all of them.

1. "freedom" .....whose freedom? And from what, as well as to do what? The West emphasizes political freedoms at the expense of economic well-being, itself a reqirement for "freedom".

2. "justice".... we all desire it; but many are denied it because of oppressive self interest of the powerful.

3. "honesty".....oh dear, poor honesty is crushed by competive instincts and self-interest.

4. "personal autonomy".....giving free rein to naked greed and self-aggrandizement of the elites. Now the world's richest individuals are wealthier than 3/4 of the world's nations. Insanity - as a result of "freedom values" rules.

Quote:

Who is making YOU think and say what you do? Me? Fd?

No, I'm thinking for myself, and exposing your illusionary "freedom values" delusion.

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« Last Edit: Oct 13^th, 2023 at 10:18am by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12177 Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #422 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 10:13am freediver wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 8:43am: Are you trying to say we will not have rights until they become part of our anatomy? Classic fraudiver question. Conscious desires are formulated in the cortex brain, yet these desires are NOT part of our anatomy.
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chimera

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #423 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 11:06am

Frank wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 9:53am:

So it is inherently human - and only human - to have rights because only humans are persons and so only humans act interpersonally.

Language - an aspect of human self-consciousness and personhood - is inherently human. That doesn't mean that all humans develop the same language, only that all humans develop language and that human languages are translatable, ie mutually comprehensible.

You identify the process but smear it. Speaking is inherent and so language is 'developed', by a community and by individual babies. Interpersonal acts as inherent abilities are 'developed' into rights. So no-one is born with an inherent language or inherent right. And no-one is born as a cop with power to legally enforce his 'right'.

'Mandamus (Latin for 'we command') is a type of writ which can be issued to 'command the fulfilment of some duty of a public nature which remains unperformed'.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #424 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 11:54am

chimera wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 11:06am:

Frank wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 9:53am:

So it is inherently human - and only human - to have rights because only humans are persons and so only humans act interpersonally.

Language - an aspect of human self-consciousness and personhood - is inherently human. That doesn't mean that all humans develop the same language, only that all humans develop language and that human languages are translatable, ie mutually comprehensible.

You identify the process but smear it. Speaking is inherent and so language is 'developed', by a community and by individual babies. Interpersonal acts as inherent abilities are 'developed' into rights. So no-one is born with an inherent language or inherent right. And no-one is born as a cop with power to legally enforce his 'right'.

'Mandamus (Latin for 'we command') is a type of writ which can be issued to 'command the fulfilment of some duty of a public nature which remains unperformed'.

Let's see where Frank takes these observations. Frank thinks the reptilian brain/cortex brain dichotomy, and considerations of conscious reasoning versus instinctive behaviour, is "gibberish", but the need for legal enforcement surely blows the concept of inherent, inalieanble 'rights' sky-high.

"Cicero: "For all to be free, all must submit to rule of law".

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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #425 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 2:34pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 10:08am:

Frank wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 9:20am:

So there is no such thing as freedom or justice or honesty or personal autonomy. 'Overstated ideals'.

The problem with that list is they are subject to interpretation by the beholder, which is why you confuse/conflate illusory "rights'" with any and all of them.

1. "freedom" .....whose freedom? And from what, as well as to do what? The West emphasizes political freedoms at the expense of economic well-being, itself a reqirement for "freedom".

2. "justice".... we all desire it; but many are denied it because of oppressive self interest of the powerful.

3. "honesty".....oh dear, poor honesty is crushed by competive instincts and self-interest.

4. "personal autonomy".....giving free rein to naked greed and self-aggrandizement of the elites. Now the world's richest individuals are wealthier than 3/4 of the world's nations. Insanity - as a result of "freedom values" rules.

Quote:

Who is making YOU think and say what you do? Me? Fd?

No, I'm thinking for myself, and exposing your illusionary "freedom values" delusion.

What value is not subject to interpretation?

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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #426 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 2:42pm

chimera wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 11:06am:

Frank wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 9:53am:

So it is inherently human - and only human - to have rights because only humans are persons and so only humans act interpersonally.

Language - an aspect of human self-consciousness and personhood - is inherently human. That doesn't mean that all humans develop the same language, only that all humans develop language and that human languages are translatable, ie mutually comprehensible.

You identify the process but smear it. Speaking is inherent and so language is 'developed', by a community and by individual babies. Interpersonal acts as inherent abilities are 'developed' into rights. So no-one is born with an inherent language or inherent right. And no-one is born as a cop with power to legally enforce his 'right'.

'Mandamus (Latin for 'we command') is a type of writ which can be issued to 'command the fulfilment of some duty of a public nature which remains unperformed'.

Don't be silly. I 'smear' nothing.

You can't be born with fully developed language, only with the inherent ability to learn language/s. Can you be kept in a cellar for 15 years and not lea run a language? Sure. But the human inherent ability is nevertheless in you. You can talk to your po ouch for 15 years, he'll never tell you what his name is.

Your personhood - and the dignity and rights and duties that come with personhood - is also inherent.
What makes you a person and not just another higher ape or just a mammal?

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chimera

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #427 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:04pm

Frank wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 2:42pm:

I 'smear' nothing.

You can't be born with fully developed language, only with the inherent ability to learn language/s.

That's the smear. You said language is inherent. Yet you know that it's not. 'Rights' of the UN were very rare, as you eloquently confirmed. Humans can imagine them but inherent they aren't.

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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #428 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:25pm

chimera wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:04pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 2:42pm:

I 'smear' nothing.

You can't be born with fully developed language, only with the inherent ability to learn language/s.

That's the smear. You said language is inherent. Yet you know that it's not. 'Rights' of the UN were very rare, as you eloquently confirmed. Humans can imagine them but inherent they aren't.

Language is inherent in humans.

Noam Chomsky, a linguistics prof at MIT, called it 'hard wired into humans'.
You can't be born speaking a language, only with the ability to learn it. Same with walking, tool making, cooperating, planning, etc. That is what inherent means. To realise your human characteristics, your inherent human traits, is your human right - the right to say ll f-realisation as a human being. But since you do not live alone, your rights must be tempered by the rights of other people around you. That's what interpersonal means.

The innovation of Christianity was to say that we are all born with the same inherent tt human characteristics and dignity, that there is no difference in human dignity between sexes, races, classes. This is why human rights is an idea rooted in Christianity, this particular Christian idea, and not in Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism, none of which recognise equal human dignity.i

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #429 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:27pm Frank wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:25pm: Language is inherent in humans. You can't be born speaking a language, only with the ability to learn it. You can smear, smudge, or blend the paint in an image. Smearing produces a similar effect to dragging across wet paint.
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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #430 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:43pm

chimera wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:27pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:25pm:

Language is inherent in humans.
You can't be born speaking a language, only with the ability to learn it.

You can smear, smudge, or blend the paint in an image. Smearing produces a similar effect to dragging across wet paint.

Yeah, sorry, my bad again, I forgot again that you are insane.

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #431 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 4:19pm 'Language is inherent in humans. You can't be born speaking a language, only with the ability to learn it'. You can't see the difference between the two ideas you have expressed? If you paint a window-frame, do you paint the glass also because it's all part of it?
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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #432 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 5:01pm

chimera wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 4:19pm:

'Language is inherent in humans.
You can't be born speaking a language, only with the ability to learn it'.

You can't see the difference between the two ideas you have expressed?
If you paint a window-frame, do you paint the glass also because it's all part of it?

Like I said, you are an idiot.

Tell me, stupid, in what way do you see human language as analogous to painting window frames?

Go on.

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chimera

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #433 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 6:24pm

The frame holds the glass and both are 'window'. The painting usually stops on the edge of the glass, unless it's Frank's car with painted windscreen. The ability to speak is like the frame within which the glass is held, like a particular language. The glass can be replaced or double-glazed. Wood is not glass.

Don't paint your windscreen. I'll explain why, later (or I'll attempt to talk to Frank about it).

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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #434 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 6:55pm

chimera wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 6:24pm:

The frame holds the glass and both are 'window'. The painting usually stops on the edge of the glass, unless it's Frank's car with painted windscreen. The ability to speak is like the frame within which the glass is held, like a particular language. The glass can be replaced or double-glazed. Wood is not glass.

Don't paint your windscreen. I'll explain why, later (or I'll attempt to talk to Frank about it).

Who is painting? The UN? You? Me?
What's the paint?
Who made the frame and the glass and who put them there? Who says it needs painting?

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