Australian Politics Forum - What is a 'right'?

chimera

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #435 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 7:04pm

Frank wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:25pm:

Language is inherent in humans.
Noam Chomsky, a linguistics prof at MIT, called it 'hard wired into humans'.

'Chomsky proposes that humans possess an inherent language faculty, which enables them to acquire and understand language.'

A wood lathe is not a chair leg, it turns the timber into a chair leg. 'Faculty' and 'Language' are different.

I've used plain words. You don't understand. I've used a word-picture to illustrate a simple point. You don't understand. You don't have the faculty. (Don't paint your windscreen, OK?)

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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #436 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 7:11pm

chimera wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 7:04pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:25pm:

Language is inherent in humans.
Noam Chomsky, a linguistics prof at MIT, called it 'hard wired into humans'.

'Chomsky proposes that humans possess an inherent language faculty, which enables them to acquire and understand language.'

A wood lathe is not a chair leg, it turns the timber into a chair leg. 'Faculty' and 'Language' are different.

I've used plain words. You don't understand. I've used a word-picture to illustrate a simple point. You don't understand. You don't have the faculty. (Don't paint your windscreen, OK?)

"A glove is like a painted window to a lathe making a timber chair leg with paint".

That's your 'argument.

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chimera Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #437 - Oct 13^th, 2023 at 7:16pm Finish
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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #438 - Oct 14^th, 2023 at 1:10pm

Frank wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:43pm:

chimera wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:27pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:25pm:

Language is inherent in humans.
You can't be born speaking a language, only with the ability to learn it.

You can smear, smudge, or blend the paint in an image. Smearing produces a similar effect to dragging across wet paint.

Yeah, sorry, my bad again, I forgot again that you are insane.

Er....excuse me, but while the human ability to learn and speak a language might be said to be "inherent", what has that to do with the posited existence of "inherent rights"?

You are showing the limitations of analogies; stick to the subject at hand ie "inherent rights" ...which are really only desires masquerading as "rights".

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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #439 - Oct 14^th, 2023 at 1:35pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2023 at 1:10pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:43pm:

chimera wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:27pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:25pm:

Language is inherent in humans.
You can't be born speaking a language, only with the ability to learn it.

You can smear, smudge, or blend the paint in an image. Smearing produces a similar effect to dragging across wet paint.

Yeah, sorry, my bad again, I forgot again that you are insane.

Er....excuse me, but while the human ability to learn and speak a language might be said to be "inherent", what has that to do with the posited existence of "inherent rights"?

You are showing the limitations of analogies; stick to the subject at hand ie "inherent rights" ...which are really only desires masquerading as "rights".

You can't be born speaking a language, only with the ability to learn it. Same with walking, tool making, cooperating, planning, etc. That is what inherent means. To realise your human characteristics, your inherent human traits, is your human right - the right to say ll f-realisation as a human being. But since you do not live alone, your rights must be tempered by the rights of other people around you. That's what interpersonal means.

The innovation of Christianity was to say that we are all born with the same inherent tt human characteristics and dignity, that there is no difference in human dignity between sexes, races, classes. This is why human rights is an idea rooted in Christianity, this particular Christian idea, and not in Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism, none of which recognise equal human dignity.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #440 - Oct 14^th, 2023 at 3:25pm

Frank wrote on Oct 14^th, 2023 at 1:35pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2023 at 1:10pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:43pm:

chimera wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:27pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 13^th, 2023 at 3:25pm:

Language is inherent in humans.
You can't be born speaking a language, only with the ability to learn it.

You can smear, smudge, or blend the paint in an image. Smearing produces a similar effect to dragging across wet paint.

Yeah, sorry, my bad again, I forgot again that you are insane.

Er....excuse me, but while the human ability to learn and speak a language might be said to be "inherent", what has that to do with the posited existence of "inherent rights"?

You are showing the limitations of analogies; stick to the subject at hand ie "inherent rights" ...which are really only desires masquerading as "rights".

You can't be born speaking a language, only with the ability to learn it.

...which is equivalent to saying the human capacity for language is 'inherent'***, but the specific language you actually learn depends eg, on where you were born.

***"inherent" because of vocal anatomy; again, nothing to do with posited "inherent rights".

Quote:

Same with walking, tool making, cooperating, planning, etc. That is what inherent means.

No it's not; while it may be said vocal chords are 'inherent' in human anatomy, what is vocalised is not, eg a different language, or support for the illusions re "rights" are not 'inhernet', they depend of the self-interested individual's point of view.

It seems you are confusing the reality of differing points of view, as proof of the existence of "inalienable rights", even though in reality those same 'rights' manifest in opposing forms, and in competiton as well as co-operation

This is the reason for fd's remarkably silly "inter-subjective reality" concept, to enable him to hold onto illusory "inalieanable rights" dogma, even though those rights are disputed by individuals with different points of view.

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To realise your human characteristics, your inherent human traits, is your human right - the right to say ll f-realisation as a human being. But since you do not live alone, your rights must be tempered by the rights of other people around you. That's what interpersonal means.

Yes, and interpersonal means the point of view of each individual will need to be addressed, which is why rule of law is required.

Quote:

The innovation of Christianity was to say that we are all born with the same inherent tt human characteristics and dignity, that there is no difference in human dignity between sexes, races, classes.

Buddhism and its search by all for enlightenment, surely also implies this 'dignity' which is available to all (if the ego is subsumed by the individual).

Quote:

This is why human rights is an idea rooted in Christianity, this particular Christian idea, and not in Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism, none of which recognise equal human dignity.

Buddhism implies human dignity, and even Confucianism is concerned with dignified relations.

But our global village is experiencing an absolute chaos of human degradation; time for some internatonal law, as well as national and local law.

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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #441 - Oct 14^th, 2023 at 4:52pm

Self-consciousness, personhood, language are all inherent human traits.

They are exercised in an interpersonal way: we recognise not only ourselves as self-conscious persons but also other human beings as well. These uniquely human, inherent traits are exercised, can only be exercised, in an inter-personal encounter with other persons. Such encounters - inevitable, inherent - are the stuff of human institutions and societies.
Recognising common, shared humanity is the basis of articulating various concepts of what personhood is in a society. This is where the concept of rights comes up: what are the rights and obligations, freedoms and restrains of pesons living among other persons.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #442 - Oct 15^th, 2023 at 10:11am

Frank wrote on Oct 14^th, 2023 at 4:52pm:

Self-consciousness, personhood, language are all inherent human traits.

Yes, owing to a highly developed cortex brain, which is nevetheless influenced by the vestigial reptilian brain.

You of course ignore my concluding remark (in my previous post):

"But our global village is experiencing an absolute chaos of human degradation; time for some internatonal law, as well as national and local law."

And so you attempt to justify your disinterest in international law, as follows:

Quote:

They are exercised in an interpersonal way: we recognise not only ourselves as self-conscious persons but also other human beings as well. These uniquely human, inherent traits are exercised, can only be exercised, in an inter-personal encounter with other persons. Such encounters - inevitable, inherent - are the stuff of human institutions and societies.

That's right: but with 'the stuff' of different human societies resulting in the endless wars and entrenched poverty that has always existed, the globe can no longer absorb this disputation without leading to total social and economic collapse.

Quote:

Recognising common, shared humanity is the basis of articulating various concepts of what personhood is in a society. This is where the concept of rights comes up: what are the rights and obligations, freedoms and restrains of pesons living among other persons.

Exactly. It's what the UNUDHR is attempting to address - but foiled by the UNSC veto.

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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #443 - Oct 15^th, 2023 at 1:19pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 15^th, 2023 at 10:11am:

Frank wrote on Oct 14^th, 2023 at 4:52pm:

Self-consciousness, personhood, language are all inherent human traits.

Yes, owing to a highly developed cortex brain, which is nevetheless influenced by the vestigial reptilian brain.

You of course ignore my concluding remark (in my previous post):

"But our global village is experiencing an absolute chaos of human degradation; time for some internatonal law, as well as national and local law."

And so you attempt to justify your disinterest in international law, as follows:

Quote:

They are exercised in an interpersonal way: we recognise not only ourselves as self-conscious persons but also other human beings as well. These uniquely human, inherent traits are exercised, can only be exercised, in an inter-personal encounter with other persons. Such encounters - inevitable, inherent - are the stuff of human institutions and societies.

That's right: but with 'the stuff' of different human societies resulting in the endless wars and entrenched poverty that has always existed, the globe can no longer absorb this disputation without leading to total social and economic collapse.

Quote:

Recognising common, shared humanity is the basis of articulating various concepts of what personhood is in a society. This is where the concept of rights comes up: what are the rights and obligations, freedoms and restrains of pesons living among other persons.

Exactly. It's what the UNUDHR is attempting to address - but foiled by the UNSC veto.

What is the difference - other than scale - between interpersonal and international?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #444 - Oct 15^th, 2023 at 2:47pm

Frank wrote on Oct 15^th, 2023 at 1:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 15^th, 2023 at 10:11am:

Frank wrote on Oct 14^th, 2023 at 4:52pm:

Self-consciousness, personhood, language are all inherent human traits.

Yes, owing to a highly developed cortex brain, which is nevetheless influenced by the vestigial reptilian brain.

You of course ignore my concluding remark (in my previous post):

"But our global village is experiencing an absolute chaos of human degradation; time for some internatonal law, as well as national and local law."

And so you attempt to justify your disinterest in international law, as follows:

Quote:

They are exercised in an interpersonal way: we recognise not only ourselves as self-conscious persons but also other human beings as well. These uniquely human, inherent traits are exercised, can only be exercised, in an inter-personal encounter with other persons. Such encounters - inevitable, inherent - are the stuff of human institutions and societies.

That's right: but with 'the stuff' of different human societies resulting in the endless wars and entrenched poverty that has always existed, the globe can no longer absorb this disputation without leading to total social and economic collapse.

Quote:

Recognising common, shared humanity is the basis of articulating various concepts of what personhood is in a society. This is where the concept of rights comes up: what are the rights and obligations, freedoms and restrains of pesons living among other persons.

Exactly. It's what the UNUDHR is attempting to address - but foiled by the UNSC veto.

What is the difference - other than scale - between interpersonal and international?

'Interpersonal' usually refers to relations within a group or a tribe whose individuals have shared beliefs.

'International' implies law which over-rules these different tribal beliefs, to the extant necessary to avoid war and establish peaceful international relations.

In a sense, it IS a matter of scale, because you already have to follow the law re eg, traffic regulations, as they relate to your own city (but obviously different levels of government have different "reach").

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« Last Edit: Oct 15^th, 2023 at 2:55pm by thegreatdivide »

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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #445 - Oct 15^th, 2023 at 2:54pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 15^th, 2023 at 2:47pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 15^th, 2023 at 1:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 15^th, 2023 at 10:11am:

Frank wrote on Oct 14^th, 2023 at 4:52pm:

Self-consciousness, personhood, language are all inherent human traits.

Yes, owing to a highly developed cortex brain, which is nevetheless influenced by the vestigial reptilian brain.

You of course ignore my concluding remark (in my previous post):

"But our global village is experiencing an absolute chaos of human degradation; time for some internatonal law, as well as national and local law."

And so you attempt to justify your disinterest in international law, as follows:

Quote:

They are exercised in an interpersonal way: we recognise not only ourselves as self-conscious persons but also other human beings as well. These uniquely human, inherent traits are exercised, can only be exercised, in an inter-personal encounter with other persons. Such encounters - inevitable, inherent - are the stuff of human institutions and societies.

That's right: but with 'the stuff' of different human societies resulting in the endless wars and entrenched poverty that has always existed, the globe can no longer absorb this disputation without leading to total social and economic collapse.

Quote:

Recognising common, shared humanity is the basis of articulating various concepts of what personhood is in a society. This is where the concept of rights comes up: what are the rights and obligations, freedoms and restrains of pesons living among other persons.

Exactly. It's what the UNUDHR is attempting to address - but foiled by the UNSC veto.

What is the difference - other than scale - between interpersonal and international?

'Interpersonal' relates to relations within a group or a tribe whose individuals have shared beliefs.

'International' implies law which over-rules these different tribal beliefs, to the extant necessary to avoid war and establish peaceful international relations.

In a sense, it IS a matter of scale, because you already have to follow the law re eg, traffic regulations, as they relate to your own city.

I mean how do you make interpersonal laws and international laws?
What's th ee difference? You have to negotiate between individuals and groups of individuals - or between nations.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #446 - Oct 15^th, 2023 at 3:08pm

Frank wrote on Oct 15^th, 2023 at 2:54pm: