Australian Politics Forum - What is a 'right'?

Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 83042 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #90 - Sep 24^th, 2023 at 8:50am You have the right to operate a vehicle - your push-bike - at night without lights in a 110 kph zone by blocking both lanes..... I don't recommend it though. Just keep stretching those 'rights' claims, boys and girls.... like any rubber band it will eventually either break or sling back and sting you.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #91 - Sep 24^th, 2023 at 8:59am

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 12:10pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 11:42am:

chimera wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 7:33am:

freediver wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 7:05am:

, freedom of speech is fundamentally different from a gall bladder?

Freely speaking means healthy vocal chords, similar to a healthy gall bladder. Freedom of speech is a legal situation. The 'human right to freedom of speech' is different from a gall bladder, is Yankee hot air and Trump diahhrea with school shootings..

Is that what it says in your CCP guide to talking to foreigners?

Funny.... you are replying to chimera who believes in individual "freedom".

Personal Sovereignty is next to godliness.... now try, Grasshopper, to understand personal sovereignty - someone posted an article on exactly that in the past week.... any Cheer can choose to leave a bad background...... better him or her self..... or choose to remain mired in the 400th century BC .... (Before Civilisation - people say that our approach to civilisation and Law is based on a Judaeo-Christian approach to society and jurisprudence..... that is an aspect shared by Buddhism, Islam in certain manifestations, and all other civilised religions - ergo - it is more likely that religion is based on the concepts of civilisation.... cart and horse....)

Where ARE the boys who look after the sheep?? Out hunting down the roots of Heaven or something? Who guards those guards while those guards fail to guard you? Why - their massive super funds and salaries etc along with their connections with the 'better classes' - why would they want to awaken to the real world of the Great Unwashed and be forced to rub shoulders with the soiled classes!!!

Where is Task force 54 ... all the world wondered...... but not to worry boys, we're suckering them into 40mm range....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #92 - Sep 24^th, 2023 at 12:13pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24^th, 2023 at 8:59am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 12:10pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 11:42am:

chimera wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 7:33am:

freediver wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 7:05am:

, freedom of speech is fundamentally different from a gall bladder?

Freely speaking means healthy vocal chords, similar to a healthy gall bladder. Freedom of speech is a legal situation. The 'human right to freedom of speech' is different from a gall bladder, is Yankee hot air and Trump diahhrea with school shootings..

Is that what it says in your CCP guide to talking to foreigners?

Funny.... you are replying to chimera who believes in individual "freedom".

Personal Sovereignty is next to godliness....

Funny; once upon a time, government via the 'Divine Right of Kings'/'Mandate of Heaven' (hopefully a benevolent authority...) was next to 'godliness', but an extreme reaction against this concept resulted in the madness of rule by the self-interested individual, or rather rule by 50%+1 of the most powerful self-interested individuals.

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now try, Grasshopper, to understand personal sovereignty -

I just did, and explained it above.

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someone posted an article on exactly that in the past week.... any Cheer can choose to leave a bad background...... better him or her self..... or choose to remain mired in the 400th century BC ....

Self-interest and personal responsbility should co-exist; but you are confusing both with "choice"; Germans "chose" Hitler as leader because of the dire economic circumstances in Germany at the time.

Likewise, blacks living in alcoholic and social dysfunction, and poverty, can't "choose" to "leave a bad background" because they don't have the necessary information and assistance to be able to do so, unlike people like Pearson and Thorpe and Price who did have access to those things.

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Before Civilisation - people say that our approach to civilisation and Law is based on a Judaeo-Christian approach to society and jurisprudence..... that is an aspect shared by Buddhism, Islam in certain manifestations, and all other civilised religions - ergo - it is more likely that religion is based on the concepts of civilisation.... cart and horse....)

You are placing the cart before the horse: 'religion' existed among stone age cultures before civilisation - and ofcourse before "civilized religion"(... if the OT's authorization of genocide by the bronze age Hebrew "god" is at all civilized...)

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Where ARE the boys who look after the sheep??

Out there trying to earn a living, to support themselves and their families as best they can.

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Out hunting down the roots of Heaven or something?

No, though 'god' has always demanded to be worshipped....

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Who guards those guards while those guards fail to guard you?

Ultimately, rule of law which has universal well-being and justice as its goal. But many of the guards are corrupt.

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Why - their massive super funds and salaries etc along with their connections with the 'better classes' - why would they want to awaken to the real world of the Great Unwashed and be forced to rub shoulders with the soiled classes!!!

Good point; self-interest often destroys integrity.

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Where is Task force 54 ... all the world wondered...... but not to worry boys, we're suckering them into 40mm range....

Why bother with well-being and security for all, when you can call in the army...?

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chimera

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #93 - Sep 24^th, 2023 at 6:15pm

freediver wrote on Sep 24^th, 2023 at 7:15am:

Are you trying to tell us that you have discovered why you cannot read about human rights in your biology textbook?

Yes, I was mistaken. It should have been in Anthropology and Confucius. Egyptian Archaeology and Book of the Dead were also in the running. Celts are useless with no writing and they used to strangle their kings which is a dead end.

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freediver

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #94 - Sep 24^th, 2023 at 6:24pm

chimera wrote on Sep 24^th, 2023 at 6:15pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 24^th, 2023 at 7:15am:

Are you trying to tell us that you have discovered why you cannot read about human rights in your biology textbook?

Yes, I was mistaken. It should have been in Anthropology and Confucius. Egyptian Archaeology and Book of the Dead were also in the running. Celts are useless with no writing and they used to strangle their kings which is a dead end.

Is that it?

I ask, because you asked the question, ignored the answers, and proceeded to make a big deal of you lack of knowledge or understanding, and this "great insight" you have come to.

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #95 - Sep 24^th, 2023 at 6:40pm You like Englishy, you speaky? A couple of posters (their names I won't tell you) and I agree about the nature of the concept. It's hidden among the Anglo words which seem foreign to a fisherman like you. You say you dive below the surface? I don't believe it.
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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #96 - Sep 24^th, 2023 at 7:17pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 24^th, 2023 at 12:13pm:

Self-interest and personal responsbility should co-exist; but you are confusing both with "choice"; Germans "chose" Hitler as leader because of the dire economic circumstances in Germany at the time.

Likewise, blacks living in alcoholic and social dysfunction, and poverty, can't "choose" to "leave a bad background" because they don't have the necessary information and assistance to be able to do so, unlike people like Pearson and Thorpe and Price who did have access to those things.

Did they chose alcoholic dysfunction?

Or did they parents chose it for them? Who chose their parent's choices? Where does responsibility BEGIN?

Why should Aborigines or ANY dysfunctional alcoholic addict be treated as if he was fully functional? Why not treat them as totally irresponsible, unreliable people and take their kids away, but them in rehab, make them dry out and clean up. They are not equal, obviously.

Oh, it's culturally inappropriate!

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thegreatdivide

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #97 - Sep 25^th, 2023 at 5:52pm

Frank wrote on Sep 24^th, 2023 at 7:17pm:

TGD:

Likewise, blacks living in alcoholic and social dysfunction, and poverty, can't "choose" to "leave a bad background" because they don't have the necessary information and assistance to be able to do so, unlike people like Pearson and Thorpe and Price who did have access to those things.

Did they chose alcoholic dysfunction?

No-one "chooses" to experience alcoholic dysfunction, and nor do babies "choose" to be born with FAS (Foetal Alcohol Syndrome.)

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Or did they parents chose it for them? Who chose their parent's choices? Where does responsibility BEGIN?

Responsibility lays with external systemic dysfunction as well as the individual ; the nation must prevent FAS by ensuring no woman (or man) succumbs to community-wide alcohol addiction.

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Why should Aborigines or ANY dysfunctional alcoholic addict be treated as if he was fully functional?

He shouldn't and isn't; he should be treated as requiring health-restoring intervention. (AA is for people who recognise they have a problem).

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Why not treat them as totally irresponsible, unreliable people and take their kids away, but them in rehab, make them dry out and clean up. They are not equal, obviously.

Well - in extremis - some families might require that level of intervention.......but not based on "treating them as totally irresponsible", but based on recognizing the addiction sickness which must be treated.

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Oh, it's culturally inappropriate!

That's a cheap shot; I already noted the misplaced concerns re "human rights" which some point to, which hinders the necessary intervention.

But here's the thing: unless people can see a clear pathway to employment, alcohol addiction is doubly difficult to shake off, because the individual can't see a future for himself.

This why the previous CDEP scheme was able to reduce crime and alcohol abuse in communities.

"The Community Development Employment Projects (CDEP) program was established in 1977 to replace the unemployment benefits for Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders living in remote areas. It aimed to provide work and on-the-job training, and to develop the culture and economies of Indigenous communities.

But free market ideologues argued against the development of the scheme, because it wasn't necessarily promoting employment in the private sector job market, hence the Thatcherite neoliberal goon John Howard wound down the scheme c.2004.

Interestingly, today, Chalmers has recognised the importance of rebuilding TAFE, which has been run-down under Thatcherite "small government" ideology, in order to deal with the massive wastage of under-employment in Oz (3 million people mentioned today).

Perhaps he might be interested in re-institution of the CDEP in remote communities, to deal with massive black un/underemployment.

...in order to close the gap.....

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« Last Edit: Sep 25^th, 2023 at 5:59pm by thegreatdivide »

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Frank

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #98 - Sep 25^th, 2023 at 7:18pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 25^th, 2023 at 5:52pm:

Frank wrote on Sep 24^th, 2023 at 7:17pm:

TGD:

Likewise, blacks living in alcoholic and social dysfunction, and poverty, can't "choose" to "leave a bad background" because they don't have the necessary information and assistance to be able to do so, unlike people like Pearson and Thorpe and Price who did have access to those things.

Did they chose alcoholic dysfunction?

No-one "chooses" to experience alcoholic dysfunction, and nor do babies "choose" to be born with FAS (Foetal Alcohol Syndrome.)

So who MAKES them go to the bottle shop against their will, buy the booze against their will and drink it all by midday, against their will?

Is there ANYTHING an Aboriginal person has personal agency in? Is there ANYTHING you can be responsible for while black?

Is Langton responsible for her idiocy about anyone thinking differently to her on the Voice is a stupid racist?

Did YOU make her say such a stupid thing?

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chimera

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Re: What is a 'right'?
Reply #99 - Sep 26^th, 2023 at 7:11am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Sep 24^th, 2023 at 8:50am:

You have the right to operate a vehicle - your push-bike - at night without lights .

The bike and you will not be inalienable. The right won't be permanent. Possibly remaining human will be void. The bike will cease its revolutions. The ambos will make declarations.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #100 - Sep 26^th, 2023 at 8:03am LTYC?
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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #101 - Sep 26^th, 2023 at 9:27am By definition: a right is a moral or legal entitlement. 👆 Has this been posted yet?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48814 At my desk.	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #102 - Sep 26^th, 2023 at 9:36am I think Chimera is still trying to convince everyone that it is not part of the human anatomy.
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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #103 - Sep 26^th, 2023 at 10:07am Lisa Jones wrote on Sep 26^th, 2023 at 9:27am: By definition: a right is a moral or legal entitlement. 👆 Has this been posted yet? Yes and I agree with you.
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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10507 armidale Gender:	Re: What is a 'right'? Reply #104 - Sep 26^th, 2023 at 10:09am freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2023 at 9:36am: I think Chimera is still trying to convince everyone that it is not part of the human anatomy. Correct. Also, that adjectives in US are overdone as with many Yank things.
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