Australian Politics Forum - Does Atheism really exist?

thegreatdivide

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #525 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 12:21pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 12:11pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 12:09pm:

Lisa "corrected" my observation that scripture was composed by men, not God, with her reply:

"As for 'atheism', you Linus...are following theories made by men, so will have a crippled ability to say anything sensible about 'God'.

The error there is obvious: scripture - whether theory or otherwise - WAS written by men, because scripture - purporting to guide men to God - of the world's extant religions, all differ.

If that was the THE error - then hop into your Linus ID. We can chat further AFTER you do that.

1. haven't you caught on yet?...I'm not Linus, so can't do as you want.

2. What's wrong with discussing your error, here?

Note: even Marcion wanted to ditch the OT, 2000 years ago, for its portrayal of a genocidal bronze age God who - Marcion considered, correctly in my opinion - could have no possible relation to the "Prince of Peace", Jesus Christ.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #526 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 12:29pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 12:11pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 12:09pm:

Lisa "corrected" my observation that scripture was composed by men, not God, with her reply:

As for 'atheism', you Linus...are following theories made by men, so will have a crippled ability to say anything sensible about 'God'.

The error there is obvious: scripture - whether theory or otherwise - WAS written by men, because scripture - purporting to guide men to God - of the world's extant religions, all differ.

If that was the THE error in my statement - then hop into your Linus ID. We can chat further AFTER you do that.

Edit : you changed your post with that little extra in brackets at the end Linus once I caught you out again sigh. Seriously way too childish. Make that disrespectful. I don’t like liars and frauds. You’re both.

I’ll check back and respond if Linus signs in here.

Cheers

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HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #527 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 12:32pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 12:29pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 12:11pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 12:09pm:

Lisa "corrected" my observation that scripture was composed by men, not God, with her reply:

As for 'atheism', you Linus...are following theories made by men, so will have a crippled ability to say anything sensible about 'God'.

The error there is obvious: scripture - whether theory or otherwise - WAS written by men, because scripture - purporting to guide men to God - of the world's extant religions, all differ.

If that was the THE error in my statement - then hop into your Linus ID. We can chat further AFTER you do that.

Edit : you changed your post with that little extra in brackets at the end Linus once I caught you out again sigh. Seriously way too childish. Make that disrespectful. I don’t like liars and frauds. You’re both.

I’ll check back and respond if Linus signs in here.

Cheers

Are you dementing? I already replied as follows:

1. haven't you caught on yet?...I'm not Linus, so can't do as you want.

2. What's wrong with discussing your error, here?

Note: even Marcion wanted to ditch the OT, 2000 years ago, for its portrayal of a genocidal bronze age God who - Marcion considered, correctly in my opinion - could have no possible relation to the "Prince of Peace", Jesus Christ.

edit : just noticed something about brackets ...no doubt another of your weird conspiracy theories....o dear....

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #528 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 12:40pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 11:37am:

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Many on this forum (in this very topic) still play Hide and Seek just like a child. And even after being sprung twice they still pretend they’re in hiding mode.

My toddlers used to do that. At age 2.

Which brings me to my question...how old are you lot?

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #529 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 12:41pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 12:01pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 11:47am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 11:37am:

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Unfortunately not all make the progression from child- hood, intellectually.

That's true.

For many, psychological development is arrested at puberty.

And only the insane chat to themselves. On OzPol they’re also referred to as Mongs.

Exhibit A

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/615

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 47498 Gender:	Re: Does Atheism really exist? Reply #530 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 1:50pm Drug addicts that post the same, rubbish, post multiple times are called. . . . . . .Larry!
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mothra

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #531 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 3:54pm

Frank wrote on Oct 5^th, 2023 at 6:10pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 5^th, 2023 at 5:04pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 5^th, 2023 at 4:47pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 4^th, 2023 at 4:32pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 4^th, 2023 at 4:24pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 4^th, 2023 at 4:10pm:

31 pages of it, with everyone talking at cross-purposes.

Define what you mean by 'god' instead of assuming each poster is referring to the same phenomenon.

Unnecessary.
It is the meaning of Greek root word theos in the word atheism. Define 'absence of theos' without reference to theos.

We are not discussing the nature of theism. Everyone know there are as many gods as there are cultures that imagine them. Are there as many atheisms? No.

By your own terms, we must be discussing the nature of theism, if atheism, in the same terms, is its antithesis.

No one here is speaking of 'theos' or 'atheos' in terms the ancient Greeks would understand.

Socrates was executed partly because he spoke against the gods, even if his last words were 'Crito, we owe a cock to Asklepios - Pay it and do not neglect it'.

You are smuggling in all sorts of furphies, this time 'antithesis'.

Also, just because atheism and theism are greek words, it doesnt mean that their meaning is restricted to what at ancient Greek understood by the words. This is a preposterous, silly red herring.

It was you who smuggled the Greeks into this thread.

Words come to mean whatever the culture that bears them says they mean - the Arabic word for atheist (Mulhid) can also refer to 'apostate' and 'heretic', so the word has a darker side in Arabic than what the Greek word is used for in English today.

In English, atheism almost universally refers to a passive form of non-belief in god(s). The general term for those who have an intense dislike for religion is antitheism.

Atheism and theism are greek words. In particular, the a- prefix is significant. It is present in our thinking in concepts like apolitical, apathetic, or in with its Latin equivalent in disinterested, etc.

Yes and as i keep telling you but you seem resistant to get is that the prefix 'a' in all of those examples represents without, not against.

One is not required to opposes theism to be an atheist. Atheism is the default position. Theism is taught.

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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mothra

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #532 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:01pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 5^th, 2023 at 6:58pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 5^th, 2023 at 6:10pm:

There are very silly and totally unbelievable conception of the divine/God. That is where atheism starts and ends. However, from that it does not follow that all conceptions of the divine/God are silly and unbelievable.

True.

All conceptions other that one's own are silly and totally unbelievable to the committed theist. And what's worse, the overwhelming majority utterly reject the threads that bind preferring rejection, ridicule and even outright hostility.

I think it would be fair to say that a great deal of the world's suffering up until and including the modern era have arisen from it.

Atheists tend not to cause these problems. There are exceptions, of course, but on the scales of human misery, theists have it all over them.

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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Frank

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #533 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:15pm

mothra wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 3:54pm:

Yes and as i keep telling you but you seem resistant to get is that the prefix 'a' in all of those examples represents without, not against.

One is not required to opposes theism to be an atheist. Atheism is the default position. Theism is taught.

You are the only one who invented the idea that I think atheism is against theism. As I keep illustrating, the a- means without the thing that comes after it. Apolitical is not against politics, atheism is not against theism. But you cannot conceptualise atheism, apolitical, apathetic, assymetric, amoral WITHOUT conceptualising what comes after the a-.

As for 'default' position, list of cultures and societies in history that started out with the default atheist cutural foundation and discovered/invented theism only later:

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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mothra

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #534 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:20pm

Frank wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:15pm:

mothra wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 3:54pm:

Yes and as i keep telling you but you seem resistant to get is that the prefix 'a' in all of those examples represents without, not against.

One is not required to opposes theism to be an atheist. Atheism is the default position. Theism is taught.

You are the only one who invented the idea that I think atheism is against theism. As I keep illustrating, the a- means without the thing that comes after it. Apolitical is not against politics, atheism is not against theism. But you cannot conceptualise atheism, apolitical, apathetic, assymetric, amoral WITHOUT conceptualising what comes after the a-.

As for 'default' position, list of cultures and societies in history that started out with the default atheist cutural foundation and discovered/invented theism only later:

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10

What a laugh. You said repeatedly that atheism cannot exist without god. You even claimed that that was because god was just so, you know, omnipotent?

Would you like me to go back and find it?

Backpedalling now?

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #535 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:21pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 11:59am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 5^th, 2023 at 3:06pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 5^th, 2023 at 3:02pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 5^th, 2023 at 2:56pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 4^th, 2023 at 4:32pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 4^th, 2023 at 4:24pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 4^th, 2023 at 4:10pm:

31 pages of it, with everyone talking at cross-purposes.

Define what you mean by 'god' instead of assuming each poster is referring to the same phenomenon.

Unnecessary.
It is the meaning of Greek root word theos in the word atheism. Define 'absence of theos' without reference to theos.

We are not discussing the nature of theism. Everyone know there are as many gods as there are cultures that imagine them. Are there as many atheisms? No.

By your own terms, we must be discussing the nature of theism, if atheism, in the same terms, is its antithesis.

No one here is speaking of 'theos' or 'atheos' in terms the ancient Greeks would understand.

Socrates was executed partly because he spoke against the gods, even if his last words were 'Crito, we owe a cock to Asklepios - Pay it and do not neglect it'.

Note : These 2 words are exactly the same IN modern Greek.

Modern Greeks wouldn't use 'theos' or 'atheos' in terms the ancient Greeks would understand.

1. The Ancient Greeks BELIEVED in gods.

2. The Modern Greeks BELIEVE in God.

The atheists in both 1. and 2. (ie in Ancient Greece and Modern Greece) shared a commonality - they DID NOT BELIEVE irrespective of the deity.

Bottom line : human agency/free will determines where you stand wrt the existence of God.

Your choice to believe in God

VS

Your choice NOT to believe in God.

(This is where I was hoping to get to with my earlier discussions with Linus).

Ok Linus. This is where YOU choose to stop playing Hide and Seek like a 2 yr old toddler. If you continue to play your stupid multi games even after being sprung twice ...then that’s on YOU!

Whenever you’re ready Linus :

1. THEISM - In Greek means THE BELIEF IN GOD

2. ATHEISM- In Greek means THE BELIEF IN NO GOD

Humans have freewill which means they get to choose btwn 1 or 2.

End of story.

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HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #536 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:31pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:21pm:

1. THEISM - In Greek means THE BELIEF IN GOD

2. ATHEISM- In Greek means THE BELIEF IN NO GOD

Atheism is not a 'believing in' - it is a disbelief.

Atheists do not 'believe in no god', they disbelieve in the existence of god - in the same way that most adults disbelieve in the existence of Santa Claus - no one 'believes in' the nonexistence of Santa Claus.

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mothra

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #537 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:36pm

Frank wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:15pm:

mothra wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 3:54pm:

Yes and as i keep telling you but you seem resistant to get is that the prefix 'a' in all of those examples represents without, not against.

One is not required to opposes theism to be an atheist. Atheism is the default position. Theism is taught.

You are the only one who invented the idea that I think atheism is against theism. As I keep illustrating, the a- means without the thing that comes after it. Apolitical is not against politics, atheism is not against theism. But you cannot conceptualise atheism, apolitical, apathetic, assymetric, amoral WITHOUT conceptualising what comes after the a-.

Let's see now:

Frank wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2023 at 8:41pm:

Of course it does. Its a revolt agaist theism.

Yes, it's reactionary. There are lots of things that are AGAINST something.

Frank wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2023 at 9:39pm:

Atheism is a belief, of course, because what it responds to is also a belief.

Frank wrote on Sep 25^th, 2023 at 9:01am:

Well, as its very name indicates, a-theism is in a dialectical relationship with theism. It is a response to theism.

Frank wrote on Sep 28^th, 2023 at 9:09am:

I said atheism is a belief in response to another belief, the one that does believe in a god in some way.
It is a belief itself about another belief. Both are beliefs about the fundamental nature of the world. One - the older belief - posits a god of its own imagining. Atheism - no-godism - in response posits that there is no God of any kind in its imagining.

Frank wrote on Sep 28^th, 2023 at 11:51am:

See? You need the concept of God to define atheism. It is inevitable since God is in the very word, atheism. You have to conceptualise what you are not believing in.

Frank wrote on Sep 28^th, 2023 at 5:48pm:

Atheism overthrow God and puts Man in his place.

Frank wrote on Sep 28^th, 2023 at 9:57pm:

There is a god even in an atheist universe.

The idea of God is impossible to exclude, even for atheists. Atheists engage with the idea of God even to define themselves.

Talk about omnipresent.

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #538 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:39pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:31pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:21pm:

1. THEISM - In Greek means THE BELIEF IN GOD

2. ATHEISM- In Greek means THE BELIEF IN NO GOD

Atheism is not a 'believing in' - it is a disbelief.

Atheists do not 'believe in no god', they disbelieve in the existence of god - in the same way that most adults disbelieve in the existence of Santa Claus - no one 'believes in' the nonexistence of Santa Claus.

Are you suddenly Greek? Of course not!

Not only is Modern Greek my 1st language - I also have an Arts degree with a High Distinction in Modern Greek.

Bottom line? Zip it.

Edit : And irrespective of the silly fake ID you use ... you always pick and choose the parts of my posts you think can slyly skew the argument in your direction. Don’t do it again!

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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mothra Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 35486 Gender:	Re: Does Atheism really exist? Reply #539 - Oct 6^th, 2023 at 4:51pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 6^th, 2023 at 11:58am: Autistics, for example, are usually trapped at the emotional age of about 15. Wow, that's dangerously ignorant. And for the most part, utterly untrue.
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Poll
Question: Atheism - how do YOU define it?
Not believing in GOD? 6 (50.0%) Believing in NO GOD? 6 (50.0%) Total votes: 12 « Created by: Lisa Jones on: Sep 28^th, 2023 at 11:29am »