Australian Politics Forum - Does Atheism really exist?

Frank

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #375 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 7:20am

Linus wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 12:12am:

Frank wrote on Sep 30^th, 2023 at 8:40pm:

Linus wrote on Sep 30^th, 2023 at 6:27pm:

Frank wrote on Sep 30^th, 2023 at 4:49pm:

Leibnitz presented a number of logical proofs of the existence of God.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz/

Spinoza also has an excellent argument.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spinoza/#GodNatu

In our time, the Professor of Mathematics at Oxford has made a few arguments in various forums, here's one:

https://www.cslewisinstitute.org/resources/what-is-the-strongest-argument-suppor...

Other very brainy people made some very good argument for the existence of god and honest testimonies about their own experiences of god. I am neither stupid or arrogant or adolescent enough to dismiss them all and claim to know better.

And this is no argument for the existence of god(s), rather it's an appeal to authority. One could easily write that there are some "very brainy people" who have made some "very good argument(s)" for the rejection of god(s). Just look here at websites x, y, z.

Also, Leibniz and Lennox believe in the classical Christian god , Spinoza was more a pantheist ( "God is everything and everything is God")

Put up the arguments for God's existence one by one, Frank, and let us all have a go at determining whether any one of the arguments are sufficient for accepting a specific god or other gods.

Can you refute Leibnitz or Spinoza?

I can't.

Can you refute Bertrand Russell, A J Ayer or maybe Daniel Dennett ?

You might like to reflect on the fact that Leibniz had a different metaphysical system to Spinoza- monads v substance monism. And you can throw into the mix the personal Christian God and whatever god(s) you can think of.

Which metaphysics is correct or which god(s) exist? Is there any god? Can you discharge the onus of proof? I don't think so, therefore I don't have to accept any metaphysics or gods.

Ultimately, the origin and arbiter of any knowledge about reality is experience. I agree with Einstein when he says, "All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it."

"Do you believe in God?” In response Einstein made an even clearer distinction between the awe humans feel when faced with the vastness, complexity and harmony of nature, and the belief in a god that monitors ethical behavior and punishes the wicked. He admired the Dutch Jewish philosopher Baruch Spinoza, and wrote: “I believe in Spinoza’s god, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a god who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind.”

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Sir Spot of Borg

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #376 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 7:50am

The poll questions should be:

your definition of atheism:

1: not believing in god (i am religious)
2) not believing in god (i am not religious)
3) believing in NO god (i am religious)
4) believing in NO god (i am not religious)

IMO it would be more accurate because i think its the religious ppl that are trying to redefine atheism even though they invented the term

Spot

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 48879 Gender:	Re: Does Atheism really exist? Reply #377 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 10:12am Saying you're an Atheist is like saying you're Anti-Middle-Eastern and nothing else. Just Anti-Middle-Eastern. Rather than saying "I'm not Anti-Middle-Eastern, I'm just Pro-Oceanian." Hence why Atheism ceases to exist without 'Religion'.
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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 47507 Gender:	Re: Does Atheism really exist? Reply #378 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 10:18am You twit! At this time period religion, tho rapidly declining, is all around us. In a couple hundred years it won’t exist, just its relics. Atheism then does not need god(s.)
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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 48879 Gender:	Re: Does Atheism really exist? Reply #379 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:09am Jovial Monk wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 10:18am: You twit! At this time period religion, tho rapidly declining, is all around us. In a couple hundred years it won’t exist, just its relics. Atheism then does not need god(s.) Blathering from a drunk
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Lisa Jones

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #380 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 3:02pm

Linus wrote on Sep 30^th, 2023 at 11:35pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Sep 30^th, 2023 at 10:57pm:

Linus wrote on Sep 30^th, 2023 at 10:01pm:

Actually Lisa, I already proved my existence by interacting you through this medium at least. You failed to launch.

And now you changed the goal post and are now asking if I'm human or a robot. I said I could prove that I'm human by meeting you.

You are now saying that you would not be satisfied that the person who met you was me and I could have been sent by an AI or a robot that goes by the name of Linus.

In any case, if I'm an AI or robot I still exist. But I don't know of any robot or AI currently that can ask human beings on its own volition to go meet people. So, someone would have instructed the AI/Robot to contact whoever meets you or the person who meets you is me. In either case, there's a human being.

Unlike your God, I interact with the material world in some way and this can be witnessed by anyone.

The only person you are losing in your maze of half-baked ideas is yourself.

No no no no no....you keep holding onto YOUR mistake like a comfort pillow.

I’ve explained quite a number of times now that you are to provide the exemplar to prove your existence as a real person (not just a robot or computer program designed to chat online) to me. You’ve not done this yet that’s ALL you have to do.

As stated earlier ... once YOU successfully provide the exemplar for proof for such an easy task then I will use YOUR exemplar to prove the existence of God. I can’t proceed unless you provide that exemplar Linus.

Prove YOU exist as a real person to me.

As far as I’m concerned Linus doesn’t exist and is just a fake ID shared by a number of other individuals or computer programs designed to chat online and to make us think that Linus is 1 real person.

...I interact with the material world in some way and this can be witnessed by anyone.

👆 Words on a screen. Pixels. That’s all they are. I don’t know if the statement is true or not .

1. I can set up a video call with you. There, you can see me, hear me, and become aware of intentions and emotions ( no AI/Robot has intentions or emotions)

2. I can organise to meet you.

3. When we meet you will see me in person and hear me you can match me to who you interacted with in the video call.

4. You could show my video call to others and have them be there at the meeting.

How would you maintain that I'm a robot then, Lisa?

Ah. You’re STILL struggling I see.

Ok ... all these points/scenarios have effectively been covered. Anyone including a robot or computer program could organise an online or offline meeting and then organise another real person to appear.

Life is short “Linus”. Say YES to God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KhmBPaXbyg

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AusGeoff

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #381 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 3:12pm

Frank wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 7:20am:

..."Do you believe in God?” In response Einstein made an even clearer distinction between the awe humans feel when faced with the vastness, complexity and harmony of nature, and the belief in a god that monitors ethical behavior and punishes the wicked. He admired the Dutch Jewish philosopher Baruch Spinoza, and wrote: “I believe in Spinoza’s god, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a god who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind.”

So once again—second time actually—you've chosen
not to address my simple question:

Quote:

Can you tell me of one piece of evidence, of any degree,
that could prove the existence of God? Only one, single
piece of viable evidence that would stand up to scientific
scrutiny?

That you're unable or unwilling to respond with a
simple answer, almost just a "yes" or "no" initially,
is a strong indicator that you have no answer, and
by extension you're unable to offer any proof at all
the God or gods do or could exist.

As an atheist, it invariably amuses me when people
like you Frank make all sorts of claims about the
existence of gods, but when pinch comes to shove,
you chicken out. I've painted you into a corner with
nowhere to go, and demolished your contentions in
one fell swoop.

Sorry.

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 47507 Gender:	Re: Does Atheism really exist? Reply #382 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 3:13pm God(s) do not exist. Not a shred of evidence has ever been given to show god(s) exist.
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Bobby.

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #383 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 3:14pm

Jasin wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:09am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 10:18am:

You twit!

At this time period religion, tho rapidly declining, is all around us.

In a couple hundred years it won’t exist, just its relics. Atheism then does not need god(s.)

Blathering from a drunk Roll Eyes

He only has a little drink. Grin

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #384 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 3:33pm

Bobby. wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 3:14pm:

Jasin wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:09am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 10:18am:

You twit!

At this time period religion, tho rapidly declining, is all around us.

In a couple hundred years it won’t exist, just its relics. Atheism then does not need god(s.)

Blathering from a drunk Roll Eyes

He only has a little drink. Grin

Just the 1 .....KEG 😂🤣😆

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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AusGeoff

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #385 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 3:36pm

Jasin wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 10:12am:

Saying you're an Atheist is like saying you're Anti-Middle-Eastern and nothing else.
Just Anti-Middle-Eastern.

Rather than saying "I'm not Anti-Middle-Eastern, I'm just Pro-Oceanian."

Hence why Atheism ceases to exist without 'Religion'.

LOL... this has to be one of the funniest assertions I've
seen in a long time.

Saying one is an atheist is nothing at all like saying
one is anti-Middle-Eastern! Obviously the Middle East
exists in the real world, so the (legitimate) "anti-" claim
is backed with empirical evidence.

Atheism—as has been explained several times here
already—does not require the existence of gods in
order to be validated.

I have no belief that unicorns exist in the real world,
but I certainly don't have to make the assumption
they can, or could, or do exist, in order to hold that
viewpoint. That'd be absurd, and against all the laws
of logic.

Same thing with your imaginary, mythical gods.

And here's a little conundrum for you:

Can you prove to me absolutely that unicorns do not exist?

Wink

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Frank

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #386 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 3:57pm

AusGeoff wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 3:36pm:

Jasin wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 10:12am:

Saying you're an Atheist is like saying you're Anti-Middle-Eastern and nothing else.
Just Anti-Middle-Eastern.

Rather than saying "I'm not Anti-Middle-Eastern, I'm just Pro-Oceanian."

Hence why Atheism ceases to exist without 'Religion'.

LOL... this has to be one of the funniest assertions I've
seen in a long time.

Saying one is an atheist is nothing at all like saying
one is anti-Middle-Eastern! Obviously the Middle East
exists in the real world, so the (legitimate) "anti-" claim
is backed with empirical evidence.

Atheism—as has been explained several times here
already—does not require the existence of gods in
order to be validated.

I have no belief that unicorns exist in the real world,
but I certainly don't have to make the assumption
they can, or could, or do exist, in order to hold that
viewpoint. That'd be absurd, and against all the laws
of logic.

Same thing with your imaginary, mythical gods.

And here's a little conundrum for you:

Can you prove to me absolutely that unicorns do not exist?

Wink

This is a very pedestrian not to say silly, argument, especially from someone blithely - or is it smugly? - mentioning logic only to ignore it completely.

Firstly, the unicorn analogy is smugly idiotic. Bbwianesque. There is no universal belief across time and cultures in some form of supernatural unicorn as an object of reverence, source of life, power. There is no word or concept like theism for unicorn-belief. Rejecting theism is nothing like rejecting unicorns.

Secondly, because some form of theism has existed among all peoples at all times, theism is readily understood WITHOUT any need for or reference to atheism. Atheism, on the other hand, being a recentish reaction to theism, is impossible to understand or conceptualise without reference the theism. Atheism is meaningless without god, to illustrate its paradox. This should be obvious to even the most poor--to-middling Sages of Gippsland or anywhere else, every time they utter the very word to signify their beliefs.

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Linus

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #387 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 4:04pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 3:02pm:

Linus wrote on Sep 30^th, 2023 at 11:35pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Sep 30^th, 2023 at 10:57pm:

Linus wrote on Sep 30^th, 2023 at 10:01pm:

Actually Lisa, I already proved my existence by interacting you through this medium at least. You failed to launch.

And now you changed the goal post and are now asking if I'm human or a robot. I said I could prove that I'm human by meeting you.

You are now saying that you would not be satisfied that the person who met you was me and I could have been sent by an AI or a robot that goes by the name of Linus.

In any case, if I'm an AI or robot I still exist. But I don't know of any robot or AI currently that can ask human beings on its own volition to go meet people. So, someone would have instructed the AI/Robot to contact whoever meets you or the person who meets you is me. In either case, there's a human being.

Unlike your God, I interact with the material world in some way and this can be witnessed by anyone.

The only person you are losing in your maze of half-baked ideas is yourself.

No no no no no....you keep holding onto YOUR mistake like a comfort pillow.

I’ve explained quite a number of times now that you are to provide the exemplar to prove your existence as a real person (not just a robot or computer program designed to chat online) to me. You’ve not done this yet that’s ALL you have to do.

As stated earlier ... once YOU successfully provide the exemplar for proof for such an easy task then I will use YOUR exemplar to prove the existence of God. I can’t proceed unless you provide that exemplar Linus.

Prove YOU exist as a real person to me.

As far as I’m concerned Linus doesn’t exist and is just a fake ID shared by a number of other individuals or computer programs designed to chat online and to make us think that Linus is 1 real person.

...I interact with the material world in some way and this can be witnessed by anyone.

👆 Words on a screen. Pixels. That’s all they are. I don’t know if the statement is true or not .

1. I can set up a video call with you. There, you can see me, hear me, and become aware of intentions and emotions ( no AI/Robot has intentions or emotions)

2. I can organise to meet you.

3. When we meet you will see me in person and hear me you can match me to who you interacted with in the video call.

4. You could show my video call to others and have them be there at the meeting.

How would you maintain that I'm a robot then, Lisa?

Ah. You’re STILL struggling I see.

Ok ... all these points/scenarios have effectively been covered. Anyone including a robot or computer program could organise an online or offline meeting and then organise another real person to appear.

Life is short “Linus”. Say YES to God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KhmBPaXbyg

Your say so, doesn't make it so. You've just ignored what I've said and with your head in the ground have deemed your victory.

You missed the correspondence between the person in the video call and the person who meets you, which can be corroborated by anyone who sees the video and is present at the meeting.

Your god cannot do something like this. He doesn't interact within the material world in any discernible way that can be readily attested to by any disinterested person

Therefore, he/she/it is more likely to be a figment of your imagination or indoctrination, largely depending on what part of the world you were raised in.

As such, no thanks, I'm saying NO to your god or any other man-made god. We are at an impasse.

Linus- the AI/Robot- over and out. Grin

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Dnarever

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #388 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 4:42pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 3:02pm:

Linus wrote on Sep 30^th, 2023 at 11:35pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Sep 30^th, 2023 at 10:57pm:

Linus wrote on Sep 30^th, 2023 at 10:01pm:

Actually Lisa, I already proved my existence by interacting you through this medium at least. You failed to launch.

And now you changed the goal post and are now asking if I'm human or a robot. I said I could prove that I'm human by meeting you.

You are now saying that you would not be satisfied that the person who met you was me and I could have been sent by an AI or a robot that goes by the name of Linus.

In any case, if I'm an AI or robot I still exist. But I don't know of any robot or AI currently that can ask human beings on its own volition to go meet people. So, someone would have instructed the AI/Robot to contact whoever meets you or the person who meets you is me. In either case, there's a human being.

Unlike your God, I interact with the material world in some way and this can be witnessed by anyone.

The only person you are losing in your maze of half-baked ideas is yourself.

No no no no no....you keep holding onto YOUR mistake like a comfort pillow.

I’ve explained quite a number of times now that you are to provide the exemplar to prove your existence as a real person (not just a robot or computer program designed to chat online) to me. You’ve not done this yet that’s ALL you have to do.

As stated earlier ... once YOU successfully provide the exemplar for proof for such an easy task then I will use YOUR exemplar to prove the existence of God. I can’t proceed unless you provide that exemplar Linus.

Prove YOU exist as a real person to me.

As far as I’m concerned Linus doesn’t exist and is just a fake ID shared by a number of other individuals or computer programs designed to chat online and to make us think that Linus is 1 real person.

...I interact with the material world in some way and this can be witnessed by anyone.

👆 Words on a screen. Pixels. That’s all they are. I don’t know if the statement is true or not .

1. I can set up a video call with you. There, you can see me, hear me, and become aware of intentions and emotions ( no AI/Robot has intentions or emotions)

2. I can organise to meet you.

3. When we meet you will see me in person and hear me you can match me to who you interacted with in the video call.

4. You could show my video call to others and have them be there at the meeting.

How would you maintain that I'm a robot then, Lisa?

Ah. You’re STILL struggling I see.

Ok ... all these points/scenarios have effectively been covered. Anyone including a robot or computer program could organise an online or offline meeting and then organise another real person to appear.

Life is short “Linus”. Say YES to God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KhmBPaXbyg

I doubt that a real AI bot would bother with you ?

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« Last Edit: Oct 1^st, 2023 at 9:06pm by Dnarever »

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Jasin

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #389 - Oct 1^st, 2023 at 6:49pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 3:33pm:

Bobby. wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 3:14pm:

Jasin wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 11:09am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Oct 1^st, 2023 at 10:18am:

You twit!

At this time period religion, tho rapidly declining, is all around us.

In a couple hundred years it won’t exist, just its relics. Atheism then does not need god(s.)

Blathering from a drunk Roll Eyes

He only has a little drink. Grin

Just the 1 .....KEG 😂🤣😆

He's a wannabe intellectual with all the intelligence of a game of trivial pursuit translated with blathering incoherence and dribbling.

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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Poll
Question: Atheism - how do YOU define it?
Not believing in GOD? 6 (50.0%) Believing in NO GOD? 6 (50.0%) Total votes: 12 « Created by: Lisa Jones on: Sep 28^th, 2023 at 11:29am »