Australian Politics Forum - Does Atheism really exist?

Lisa Jones

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #660 - Oct 12^th, 2023 at 3:41pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 12^th, 2023 at 3:18pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 12^th, 2023 at 2:02pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 12^th, 2023 at 10:56am:

Frank wrote on Oct 11^th, 2023 at 8:43pm:

An anthropomorphic god is too obviously a metaphor. You can't take it literally.

There is a lot of wisdom in religious teachings, as there is in literature, art and other imaginative human engagements with questions of meaning. Taking transcendent things literally, not noticing that we only have language, based on sensory experience, to talk about non-sensory aspects of our lives as if they were just like sensory experiences, is the trap both atheists and biblical literalist fall into and they are battling over nonsense.

Ah, so you DID respond, though not to my post specifically ( ...too difficult?)

Let's take a a closer look:

"An anthropomorphic god is too obviously a metaphor. You can't take it literally."

You and I can't, but politically powerful RW Christian Conservatives certainly DO take it seriously, see Pompeo's widely held theories on 'the rapture' and 'Armageddon'.

As for your next paragraph, we are in furious agreement, so when will you stop supporting biblical literalists' claims (eg "the Promised Land") on the WB?

Such claims cost PM Rabin his life (Rabin's murderer was a Jewish OT nut-job), and are a fundamental cause of the current mayhem; the 2-state solution is - in the course of decades - slowly disappearing before our eyes, as the IDF defends illegal settler OT nut-jobs.

The Muslims didn't accept the two state solution in 1947 or any time since.
Hamas, Hezb'allah, the ayatollahs and imams and their flocks only accept a one state solution, a Muslim state solution 'from the rive rr to the sea'.

Wrong topic?

Over here 👉 Five Foot Frodo Fruitloop has just been exposed as an ignorant uneducated tosspot fraud 😂🤣😆👇

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1697088740/0

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 47498 Gender:	Re: Does Atheism really exist? Reply #661 - Oct 12^th, 2023 at 3:43pm No, he hasn’t.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #662 - Oct 12^th, 2023 at 6:10pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 12^th, 2023 at 3:41pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 12^th, 2023 at 3:18pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 12^th, 2023 at 2:02pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 12^th, 2023 at 10:56am:

Frank wrote on Oct 11^th, 2023 at 8:43pm:

An anthropomorphic god is too obviously a metaphor. You can't take it literally.

There is a lot of wisdom in religious teachings, as there is in literature, art and other imaginative human engagements with questions of meaning. Taking transcendent things literally, not noticing that we only have language, based on sensory experience, to talk about non-sensory aspects of our lives as if they were just like sensory experiences, is the trap both atheists and biblical literalist fall into and they are battling over nonsense.

Ah, so you DID respond, though not to my post specifically ( ...too difficult?)

Let's take a a closer look:

"An anthropomorphic god is too obviously a metaphor. You can't take it literally."

You and I can't, but politically powerful RW Christian Conservatives certainly DO take it seriously, see Pompeo's widely held theories on 'the rapture' and 'Armageddon'.

As for your next paragraph, we are in furious agreement, so when will you stop supporting biblical literalists' claims (eg "the Promised Land") on the WB?

Such claims cost PM Rabin his life (Rabin's murderer was a Jewish OT nut-job), and are a fundamental cause of the current mayhem; the 2-state solution is - in the course of decades - slowly disappearing before our eyes, as the IDF defends illegal settler OT nut-jobs.

The Muslims didn't accept the two state solution in 1947 or any time since.
Hamas, Hezb'allah, the ayatollahs and imams and their flocks only accept a one state solution, a Muslim state solution 'from the rive rr to the sea'.

Wrong topic?

Over here 👉 Five Foot Frodo Fruitloop has just been exposed as an ignorant uneducated tosspot fraud 😂🤣😆👇

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1697088740/0

Poor, low IQ Lisa, diverting as usual, to avoid dealing with the points raised....eg the human origin of scripture - as opposed to the delusional dogma re the divine authorship of scripture.

"deplorable".

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« Last Edit: Oct 12^th, 2023 at 6:18pm by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #663 - Oct 12^th, 2023 at 6:17pm

Frank wrote on Oct 12^th, 2023 at 2:02pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 12^th, 2023 at 10:56am:

Frank wrote on Oct 11^th, 2023 at 8:43pm:

An anthropomorphic god is too obviously a metaphor. You can't take it literally.

There is a lot of wisdom in religious teachings, as there is in literature, art and other imaginative human engagements with questions of meaning. Taking transcendent things literally, not noticing that we only have language, based on sensory experience, to talk about non-sensory aspects of our lives as if they were just like sensory experiences, is the trap both atheists and biblical literalist fall into and they are battling over nonsense.

Ah, so you DID respond, though not to my post specifically ( ...too difficult?)

Let's take a a closer look:

"An anthropomorphic god is too obviously a metaphor. You can't take it literally."

You and I can't, but politically powerful RW Christian Conservatives certainly DO take it seriously, see Pompeo's widely held theories on 'the rapture' and 'Armageddon'.

As for your next paragraph, we are in furious agreement, so when will you stop supporting biblical literalists' claims (eg "the Promised Land") on the WB?

Such claims cost PM Rabin his life (Rabin's murderer was a Jewish OT nut-job), and are a fundamental cause of the current mayhem; the 2-state solution is - in the course of decades - slowly disappearing before our eyes, as the IDF defends illegal settler OT nut-jobs.

The Muslims didn't accept the two state solution in 1947 or any time since.

That's a blind, partisan lie; Abbas has been hanging around the UN in New York begging the UN to create the Palestinian state alongside Israel, as per UN res 181 and 242.

Quote:

Hamas, Hezb'allah, the ayatollahs and imams and their flocks only accept a one state solution, a Muslim state solution 'from the rive rr to the sea'.

Ther are the 'literalists' you mentioned before.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 13005 Gender:	Re: Does Atheism really exist? Reply #664 - Oct 12^th, 2023 at 6:18pm .
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Frank

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #665 - Oct 12^th, 2023 at 9:21pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 12^th, 2023 at 6:17pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 12^th, 2023 at 2:02pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 12^th, 2023 at 10:56am:

Frank wrote on Oct 11^th, 2023 at 8:43pm:

An anthropomorphic god is too obviously a metaphor. You can't take it literally.

There is a lot of wisdom in religious teachings, as there is in literature, art and other imaginative human engagements with questions of meaning. Taking transcendent things literally, not noticing that we only have language, based on sensory experience, to talk about non-sensory aspects of our lives as if they were just like sensory experiences, is the trap both atheists and biblical literalist fall into and they are battling over nonsense.

Ah, so you DID respond, though not to my post specifically ( ...too difficult?)

Let's take a a closer look:

"An anthropomorphic god is too obviously a metaphor. You can't take it literally."

You and I can't, but politically powerful RW Christian Conservatives certainly DO take it seriously, see Pompeo's widely held theories on 'the rapture' and 'Armageddon'.

As for your next paragraph, we are in furious agreement, so when will you stop supporting biblical literalists' claims (eg "the Promised Land") on the WB?

Such claims cost PM Rabin his life (Rabin's murderer was a Jewish OT nut-job), and are a fundamental cause of the current mayhem; the 2-state solution is - in the course of decades - slowly disappearing before our eyes, as the IDF defends illegal settler OT nut-jobs.

The Muslims didn't accept the two state solution in 1947 or any time since.

That's a blind, partisan lie; Abbas has been hanging around the UN in New York begging the UN to create the Palestinian state alongside Israel, as per UN res 181 and 242.

Quote:

Hamas, Hezb'allah, the ayatollahs and imams and their flocks only accept a one state solution, a Muslim state solution 'from the rive rr to the sea'.

Ther are the 'literalists' you mentioned before.

You are an idiot, parrot. The Jews accepted the UN offer, the Arabs didn't and immediately attacked Israel.

On 29 November 1947 the UN General Assembly voted on the partition plan, adopted by 33 votes to 13 with 10 abstentions. The Jewish side accepted the UN plan for the establishment of two states. The Arabs rejected it and launched a war of annihilation against the Jewish state..

History.

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SadKangaroo

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #666 - Oct 23^rd, 2023 at 10:08am

Thanks for the invite Lisa.

Does Atheism really exist?

I've been reading through the thread and it seems like even the question itself means different things to different people.

I'll share my thoughts.

Atheism isn't like the established religions. It's not organised and it doesn't require a blind devotion to a belief or way of life based on a belief for which there is no evidence to justify.

To my understanding, it's simply the lack of belief in the existence of at least one deity or "God".

Sort of like how a shadow doesn't really exist, it's just the absence of light.

The concept of Atheism exists.

People can be atheists without needing to subscribe to any specific way of thinking, organised or otherwise.

The default position of humanity is atheism.

It's not until one is indoctrinated into a faith-based system that they have a belief in a certain deity.

It's not the same as a religion. So does Atheism exist in the same way Christianity does?

No.

As humanity, we should have outgrown religion in terms of thinking there is god who made the heavens and earth, Adam and Eve etc, but we haven't been able to shed those bonds of oppression yet.

While at the same time, as humanity we needed religion in our youth. Without the sense of curiosity, we would have "never left the cave" so to speak, never explored, never wondered what was over the next hill, the next mountain.

We've always had a yearning for answers, we ate the apple so to speak. Religion was our first attempt at trying to answer the question that curiosity forced us to ask, for which at the time we didn't have any answer.

Like why does the sun rise etc (the Sun God did it, etc).

We've come a long way and have the answers to a lot of these questions, even from the origins of our universe, the building blocks of life on this planet, and how we came to be.

But not every question has been answered yet and some people can't accept that we just don't know, yet.

So there will always be a place for religion to fill those voids.

But that said, Atheism is organic, it's our default position and it doesn't require an organised religion style institution for it to exist and grow.

But it does not exist like an organised religion does because of that lack of an institution.

You don't need to believe anything to be an atheist. You don't need to take a leap of faith in fact.

The thing about most Atheists is, if the existence of Gods was proven, they'd accept that and agree based on the facts and evidence.

It doesn't work the other way around.

Those with faith aren't bound by the same thing. They're shamed by their institutions for questioning their faith, questioning the teachings etc.

I was indoctrinated into the Church of England as a young kid. Even at a Public School in SEQ, we had to recite the Lord's Prayer at assembly.

We had the religious education classes. It was opt-out, but there was only one kid who did and it was because he was Muslim and it was a great source of bullying.

It wasn't until I asked questions of the old bitty who was volunteering from the church about Noah's Ark that it all changed for me.

I had no reason not to believe. I was told by all the adults around me, that there was a God, he made the heaven and earth, Adam and Eve, etc. I was brought up "knowing" that adults had all the answers, they should be respected and they knew best.

But we'd just learned in, I think this was grade 5, about how many different species of ants there were, and if you counted all of them not only would they vastly outnumber humans but also they would weigh many times more than us if you measured all of them.

So I asked the RE "teacher", if the great flood killed all life on earth, (she interrupted the question and said "Not If, the bible tells us it destroyed all life on earth except that which was taken on the ark"), so I continued, "does that mean that all the bugs from ants to bees were also on the ark?

She paused for a moment and said No, God did not instruct the insects or the sea creatures to follow Noah to the Ark.

So of course I asked, So the flood didn't kill all life on Earth then?

She paused and said that it only destroyed life that mattered but didn't believe in god and follow his teachings, but that all the ants and insects would have drowned. There were some stowaways, like rats, on the Ark and that's why we still have all the insects today.

I thought that made sense, but we have so many different types of ants, as I said, we were just learning about them and their life cycles, their nests etc.

So I asked her if we had so many ants today, did they all came from those stowaways and why are there so many different types.

At this point, she asked me to come to the front of the class and stand facing everyone else. She dragged my desk to the front of the class, made it face everyone else and got me to sit back down.

She said to the class, "Kanga doesn't believe in god everyone, he doesn't have faith, who else doesn't believe in god".

Of course, nobody else said anything. And for the rest of the year, I had to sit at the front of the class like that, and every time she'd tell us another story, like water to wine, she'd pause and say "And Jesus turned water into wine, unless you don't believe like Kanga over here" and would point to me.

That experience was what started me to question my faith and ask more questions. So my Atheism you could say was church-sponsored, but organic.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #667 - Oct 23^rd, 2023 at 10:31am

SadKangaroo wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2023 at 10:08am:

The default position of humanity is atheism.

In one sense you could say that it is, but in another, I'm not so sure.

The conditions by which theism arises are intuitive... instinctive, even.

We are hard-wired to intuit the metaphysical.

By stimulating certain parts of the temporal lobes, a sense of the spiritual, a sense of a higher being even, can be invoked, upon which theism is predicated.

How could it not be? Theism could hardly take root in our minds without the fertile soil provided by an innate sense of the spiritual.

It's telling that hunter-gatherer societies all manifest a sense of the spiritual, indicating that this predisposition has been with us a long before sedentism and civilisation progressed this sense to an organised and crystallised form of its worship.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #668 - Oct 23^rd, 2023 at 12:49pm

Just a heads up to all who have posted in this topic : I have invited Kangaroo over here from another topic. It kinda happened spontaneously and quite frankly I personally think his contribution in this topic will be both enlightening and interesting.

As we all have different personal experiences/personalities/perspectives let’s just share these. Will we ever get to the answer posed by the topic title? My answer is : Who cares? Let’s enjoy this journey of discovery as we analyse the kaleidoscope of possible responses.

Now .....many of you might recall that my eldest son is finishing off his second degree at Sydney Uni. That degree is in law. I go through a lot of his material (mainly for proof reading plus to ask a few questions on points which I think ought to be clarified etc). This recent piece of legislation was featured in one of his tutorials. Have a read. Isn’t it interesting how the legislation essentially links Atheism into a Religious Vilification Act?

https://www.nsw.gov.au/media-releases/new-law-banning-religious-vilification-pas...

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: Does Atheism really exist? Reply #669 - Oct 23^rd, 2023 at 12:52pm #
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Lisa Jones

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #670 - Oct 23^rd, 2023 at 12:57pm

Landmark legislation to prohibit religious vilification passed NSW Parliament - Aug 2023

The amendment to the NSW Anti-Discrimination Act 1977 makes it unlawful to, “by a public act, incite hatred towards, serious contempt for, or severe ridicule of, a person or group of persons, because of their religious belief, affiliation or activity”.

A “public act” includes any form of communication to the public, verbal and non-verbal.

The legislation mirrors existing provisions in the Anti-Discrimination Act that make vilification unlawful on the grounds of race, homosexuality, transgender status and HIV/AIDS status.

People who do not have a religious belief or affiliation or do not engage in religious activity are also protected under the new law, which recognises that these are also positions in relation to religion which should be respected.

A wide range of stakeholders were consulted on the amendment, including faith-based organisations, community groups, multicultural associations, legal advocates and NSW Government agencies.

The new law comes into effect three months after the date of assent to the Act.

NSW Attorney General Michael Daley said:
“We are lucky to live in a harmonious society that values respect, tolerance and inclusivity.
“Vilification on the grounds of a person’s religion (or no belief) is completely unacceptable in our community. Now we have a clear law to protect people from public actions that incite hatred or serious contempt or severe ridicule of them on the basis of their religious belief or lack of belief.”
NSW Minister for Multiculturalism Steve Kamper said:

“NSW is one of the most successful multicultural states in the world. Our vibrant multicultural and multi-faith communities enrich our society.
“It is regrettable to see any expression of vilification towards certain groups based on their beliefs.

“This legislation sends a strong message to those people who seek to stir hatred and division in our community. It won’t be tolerated.”

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

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Frank

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #671 - Oct 23^rd, 2023 at 3:43pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2023 at 12:49pm:

Just a heads up to all who have posted in this topic : I have invited Kangaroo over here from another topic. It kinda happened spontaneously and quite frankly I personally think his contribution in this topic will be both enlightening and interesting.

As we all have different personal experiences/personalities/perspectives let’s just share these. Will we ever get to the answer posed by the topic title? My answer is : Who cares? Let’s enjoy this journey of discovery as we analyse the kaleidoscope of possible responses.

Now .....many of you might recall that my eldest son is finishing off his second degree at Sydney Uni. That degree is in law. I go through a lot of his material (mainly for proof reading plus to ask a few questions on points which I think ought to be clarified etc). This recent piece of legislation was featured in one of his tutorials. Have a read. Isn’t it interesting how the legislation essentially links Atheism into a Religious Vilification Act?

https://www.nsw.gov.au/media-releases/new-law-banning-religious-vilification-pas...

It's to protect apostate Muslims.

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 48853 Gender:	Re: Does Atheism really exist? Reply #672 - Oct 24^th, 2023 at 2:47am So I declare that this Topic has proven that Atheism DOES NOT EXIST and therefore this Board must cease to exist with it.
Back to top	AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY. IP Logged

SadKangaroo

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #673 - Oct 24^th, 2023 at 8:35am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2023 at 10:31am:

SadKangaroo wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2023 at 10:08am:

The default position of humanity is atheism.

In one sense you could say that it is, but in another, I'm not so sure.

The conditions by which theism arises are intuitive... instinctive, even.

We are hard-wired to intuit the metaphysical.

By stimulating certain parts of the temporal lobes, a sense of the spiritual, a sense of a higher being even, can be invoked, upon which theism is predicated.

How could it not be? Theism could hardly take root in our minds without the fertile soil provided by an innate sense of the spiritual.

It's telling that hunter-gatherer societies all manifest a sense of the spiritual, indicating that this predisposition has been with us a long before sedentism and civilisation progressed this sense to an organised and crystallised form of its worship.

That may be the case, but I think it's more likely that the physical response is the dopamine hit we get from finding the right answer, or at least thinking we have.

Unanswered questions spawned by our curiosity don't give us the dopamine hit, but it also can leave many people feeling uneasy or even anxious.

It's that feeling that pushed us to explore over the next hill etc.

Religion and faith have served us well for a long time because they gave us some answers as to why things were. It was our first attempt at science and it took away that feeling of anxiety of not knowing and also would give some that dopamine hit.

The security blanket that nothing you do matters in this world, it's all about the next, it's all fated and you're not in control allows people to not only feel like someone is guiding them and they're not alone but also excuse terrible actions and atrocities.

Why are we here, how are we here, what happens when we die?

Some things that we can't answer and may never be able to.

Or once we get answers, it spawns more questions.

There is a large body of evidence to support the Universe's expansion and that the Big Bang happened. We can calculate how long ago it was and we can see the evidence of it today.

But what triggered it? What happened before it, was there a before?

More questions.

Once you answer the question with, "god did it" that's it. You have an all-encompassing answer. Further investigation and learning cease.

In fact, questioning it further, the whys and the hows, it's not only discouraged but can be blasphemy or heresy.

Not being allowed to ask questions is against human nature.

But some people are ok with that if they think they have the answers.

It's the same basis for why some are so susceptible to conspiracy theories and why many movements growing in popularity like what the MAGA movement have morphed into. It's more of an evangelical movement now even though their leader is anything but.

But the traits needed in a person to accept without question the word of god etc, it's some of the same needed to accept the conspiracy theories with the added bonus of their basis being simply enough that anyone can understand and there are plenty of people reinforcing that the beholder of those beliefs is right.

That dopamine hit all over again.

A lot of people for a long time have either had to live with the feeling of not knowing, or worse, thought they understood something only to be told they're wrong, countless times, from being children in school and struggling to understand math problems all the way up to their adult lives.

That evolutionary trait of asking questions and wanting answers, that has never gone away. Our education system today, across many Western countries, has let a lot of people down however.

Perhaps it's more accurate to say that the default position for us is to ask questions and seek answers.

At some point that is discouraged with organised religion, whereas seeking the truth isn't prevented if one doesn't simply have "faith". If anything it's rewarded.

So the path everyone will naturally take is that of atheism until they're indoctrinated into a faith and told the answers to all their questions is provided by their god or deity and to question them further is not allowed.

If that is the natural path we take then surely atheism exists.

Just not as an institution with members meetings and being told what to think or say in the way organised religion does.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #674 - Oct 24^th, 2023 at 9:13am

SadKangaroo wrote on Oct 24^th, 2023 at 8:35am:

That may be the case, but I think it's more likely that the physical response is the dopamine hit we get from finding the right answer, or at least thinking we have.

Religion and faith have served us well for a long time because they gave us some answers as to why things were. It was our first attempt at science and it took away that feeling of anxiety of not knowing and also would give some that dopamine hit.

Why are we here, how are we here, what happens when we die?

Some things that we can't answer and may never be able to.

In fact, questioning it further, the whys and the hows, it's not only discouraged but can be blasphemy or heresy.

Not being allowed to ask questions is against human nature.

But some people are ok with that if they think they have the answers.

It's the same basis for why some are so susceptible to conspiracy theories and why many movements growing in popularity like what the MAGA movement have morphed into. It's more of an evangelical movement now even though their leader is anything but.

But the traits needed in a person to accept without question the word of god etc, it's some of the same needed to accept the conspiracy theories with the added bonus of their basis being simply enough that anyone can understand and there are plenty of people reinforcing that the beholder of those beliefs is right.

That dopamine hit all over again.

The dopaminergic response is about anticipating positive outcomes to be realised in the future, and religious practice can augment the likelihood of that response, as can other repetitive or ritualistic practises.

Atheists are not necessarily immune to magical thinking evoked by dopamine, such that when a good thing happens to us, we're hard-wired to take into account a myriad of things that happened, or what we were doing at the time, or what physiological/psychological state we were in immediately prior to the good thing happening.

Similarly, atheists are not necessarily immune from 'touching wood' or wearing a lucky charm to avoid or avert bad future outcomes - again, we're hard-wired to intuit our agency against plain, random bad luck.

It's not for no reason that, as traditional religions decline in influence, quasi-, pseudo-, or new religions have grown in influence - e.g. New Age, spiritualism, crystallogy, 'the universe providing', 'Western Buddhism' &etc.

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Poll
Question: Atheism - how do YOU define it?
Not believing in GOD? 6 (50.0%) Believing in NO GOD? 6 (50.0%) Total votes: 12 « Created by: Lisa Jones on: Sep 28^th, 2023 at 11:29am »