Australian Politics Forum - Does Atheism really exist?

MeisterEckhart

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #750 - Oct 31^st, 2023 at 11:26am

Frank wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 11:05am:

You can't think of talk about atheism unless you have some concept or definition of god of your own.

Of course. It makes no sense to say you disbelieve in an assertion or theory that has never been posited.

Central European folklore includes a mythical Christmas figure of Krampus.

You will not find disbelievers in Krampus among anyone who has never heard of him.

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 12623 Gender:	Re: Does Atheism really exist? Reply #751 - Oct 31^st, 2023 at 11:27am .
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SadKangaroo

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #752 - Oct 31^st, 2023 at 12:36pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 11:26am:

Frank wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 11:05am:

You can't think of talk about atheism unless you have some concept or definition of god of your own.

Of course. It makes no sense to say you disbelieve in an assertion or theory that has never been posited.

Central European folklore includes a mythical Christmas figure of Krampus.

You will not find disbelievers in Krampus among anyone who has never heard of him.

That is a good point.

But it seems like a bit of a semantic cop-out.

Faith is always a choice.

The absence of faith isn't.

Something needs to be defined to believe in it, but the same can't be said for there to be a lack of belief in it.

Unless someone is choosing to actively disbelieve then sure, they would need to define what it is they are choosing not to believe in, but that's more like being anti-faith than lacking faith.

You can not believe in a god or gods even without knowing that someone has claimed they exist.

It's not the same as being anti, like said anti-islam, it's just without belief, aka, atheist.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #753 - Oct 31^st, 2023 at 1:35pm

SadKangaroo wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 12:36pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 11:26am:

Frank wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 11:05am:

You can't think of talk about atheism unless you have some concept or definition of god of your own.

Of course. It makes no sense to say you disbelieve in an assertion or theory that has never been posited.

Central European folklore includes a mythical Christmas figure of Krampus.

You will not find disbelievers in Krampus among anyone who has never heard of him.

That is a good point.

But it seems like a bit of a semantic cop-out.

Faith is always a choice.

The absence of faith isn't.

Something needs to be defined to believe in it, but the same can't be said for there to be a lack of belief in it.

Unless someone is choosing to actively disbelieve then sure, they would need to define what it is they are choosing not to believe in, but that's more like being anti-faith than lacking faith.

You can not believe in a god or gods even without knowing that someone has claimed they exist.

It's not the same as being anti, like said anti-islam, it's just without belief, aka, atheist.

Belief in a god is not always a matter of choice. Children, universally, believe in god if they're told by authority figures they trust that god exists.

For the same reasons, disbelief is not always a matter of choice, such that atheism may not necessarily be a matter of choice.

No one can know they're in a state of disbelief until they are sufficiently cognisant of what it is they disbelieve; for the same reasons that children are not defined as apolitical because they don't know what a Prime Minister is - they simply don't know that they don't know about political structures and premiership.

Disbelief does not necessarily need to be antitheistic or antireligious, either. Passive atheism or irreligiosity is possible, particularly where the disbeliever is not impassioned against belief and religion due to bad experiences.

Robert Sapolsky, raised an orthodox Jew, recalls the time he became an atheist - for him, it was a passive realisation that god did not exist.

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Frank

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #754 - Oct 31^st, 2023 at 2:22pm

SadKangaroo wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 12:36pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 11:26am:

Frank wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 11:05am:

You can't think of talk about atheism unless you have some concept or definition of god of your own.

Of course. It makes no sense to say you disbelieve in an assertion or theory that has never been posited.

Central European folklore includes a mythical Christmas figure of Krampus.

You will not find disbelievers in Krampus among anyone who has never heard of him.

That is a good point.

But it seems like a bit of a semantic cop-out.

Faith is always a choice.

The absence of faith isn't.

Something needs to be defined to believe in it, but the same can't be said for there to be a lack of belief in it.

Unless someone is choosing to actively disbelieve then sure, they would need to define what it is they are choosing not to believe in, but that's more like being anti-faith than lacking faith.

You can not believe in a god or gods even without knowing that someone has claimed they exist.

It's not the same as being anti, like said anti-islam, it's just without belief, aka, atheist.

Have you noticed the 'theis' part of atheism?

There is no atheism without that 'theism' bit. It is THAT bit that defines atheism. There is no atheism without it.

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Jasin

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #755 - Oct 31^st, 2023 at 2:29pm

SadKangaroo wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 7:21am:

Jasin wrote on Oct 30^th, 2023 at 8:41pm:

No deflection needed.
No I'm not going to humour you.
I know. You both don't - so suck it up.

"I know but I'm not telling, because reasons?"

You realise we're just having a discussion, there's nothing to be scared of right?

This win at all costs mentality, to the point you've flipped the game board and won't play is childish at best.

I'm not scared.
This topic was made to 'test the waters' on different opinions.
The fact that Atheists themselves refuse to admit who they are bias towards for want of embracing it fully and officially, as opposed to their long running Anti-Religious existence.

Not my fault you and Geoff fell into a bit of an obvious trap. Wink

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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SadKangaroo

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #756 - Oct 31^st, 2023 at 3:00pm

Frank wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 2:22pm:

SadKangaroo wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 12:36pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 11:26am:

Frank wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 11:05am:

You can't think of talk about atheism unless you have some concept or definition of god of your own.

Of course. It makes no sense to say you disbelieve in an assertion or theory that has never been posited.

Central European folklore includes a mythical Christmas figure of Krampus.

You will not find disbelievers in Krampus among anyone who has never heard of him.

That is a good point.

But it seems like a bit of a semantic cop-out.

Faith is always a choice.

The absence of faith isn't.

Something needs to be defined to believe in it, but the same can't be said for there to be a lack of belief in it.

Unless someone is choosing to actively disbelieve then sure, they would need to define what it is they are choosing not to believe in, but that's more like being anti-faith than lacking faith.

You can not believe in a god or gods even without knowing that someone has claimed they exist.

It's not the same as being anti, like said anti-islam, it's just without belief, aka, atheist.

Have you noticed the 'theis' part of atheism?

There is no atheism without that 'theism' bit. It is THAT bit that defines atheism. There is no atheism without it.

If you take the name as the definition only, not what it defines, then sure.

But that's being dishonest.

Atheism is disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

So you can have a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods if nobody has ever told you about them.

So you can be an atheist without having ever been told of the "theism".

Now to actively "disbelieve", the other possible definition then sure, you must know what you are actually disbelieving.

But to say atheism cannot exist with religion, it's simply untrue.

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SadKangaroo

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #757 - Oct 31^st, 2023 at 3:08pm

Jasin wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 2:29pm:

I'm not scared.
This topic was made to 'test the waters' on different opinions.
The fact that Atheists themselves refuse to admit who they are bias towards for want of embracing it fully and officially, as opposed to their long running Anti-Religious existence.

Not my fault you and Geoff fell into a bit of an obvious trap. Wink

It's only a "trap" if you're so close-minded that you're only accepting information that adheres to your beliefs no matter what is real.

Atheism is a lack of belief in God or gods.

It's in the name, it's clearly defined.

It's rich for you to claim others are refusing to admit anything with the blinkered stance you're taking here. You're all about setting traps and winning.

That's not to say atheists can't be anti-religion because they certainly can. I've never claimed to the contrary.

I've only ever said that atheism alone is not anti-religion, it's just the mindset of an individual who does not believe in God or gods.

To make any claim about atheism just isn't possible.

Tell me, what would it take for you to change your mind on your idea that to be an atheist, one must be anti-religion?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #758 - Oct 31^st, 2023 at 3:26pm

SadKangaroo wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 3:00pm:

If you take the name as the definition only, not what it defines, then sure.

But that's being dishonest.

Atheism is disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

So you can have a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods if nobody has ever told you about them.

So you can be an atheist without having ever been told of the "theism".

Now to actively "disbelieve", the other possible definition then sure, you must know what you are actually disbelieving.

But to say atheism cannot exist with religion, it's simply untrue.

You're being glib about the definition of atheism.

If it actually signified something other than cognisant disbelief in god(s), then it would be a meaningless term - without substance. You may as well define a person in a coma as an atheist.

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Frank

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #759 - Oct 31^st, 2023 at 4:16pm

SadKangaroo wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 3:00pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 2:22pm:

SadKangaroo wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 12:36pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 11:26am:

Frank wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 11:05am:

You can't think of talk about atheism unless you have some concept or definition of god of your own.

Of course. It makes no sense to say you disbelieve in an assertion or theory that has never been posited.

Central European folklore includes a mythical Christmas figure of Krampus.

You will not find disbelievers in Krampus among anyone who has never heard of him.

That is a good point.

But it seems like a bit of a semantic cop-out.

Faith is always a choice.

The absence of faith isn't.

Something needs to be defined to believe in it, but the same can't be said for there to be a lack of belief in it.

Unless someone is choosing to actively disbelieve then sure, they would need to define what it is they are choosing not to believe in, but that's more like being anti-faith than lacking faith.

You can not believe in a god or gods even without knowing that someone has claimed they exist.

It's not the same as being anti, like said anti-islam, it's just without belief, aka, atheist.

Have you noticed the 'theis' part of atheism?

There is no atheism without that 'theism' bit. It is THAT bit that defines atheism. There is no atheism without it.

If you take the name as the definition only, not what it defines, then sure.

But that's being dishonest.

Atheism is disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

So you can have a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods if nobody has ever told you about them.

So you can be an atheist without having ever been told of the "theism".

Now to actively "disbelieve", the other possible definition then sure, you must know what you are actually disbelieving.

But to say atheism cannot exist with religion, it's simply untrue.

The point is that atheism is inconceivable without some conception of God.

Otherwise your pet rock is also an atheist, and your cat, since neither can conceive any ideas, let alone any idea of a god. You have to have some idea of war to be a pacifist, some idea of gods to be an atheist, some idea of witches not to believe in witches.

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Frank

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #760 - Oct 31^st, 2023 at 4:17pm

SadKangaroo wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 3:00pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 2:22pm:

SadKangaroo wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 12:36pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 11:26am:

Frank wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 11:05am:

You can't think of talk about atheism unless you have some concept or definition of god of your own.

Of course. It makes no sense to say you disbelieve in an assertion or theory that has never been posited.

Central European folklore includes a mythical Christmas figure of Krampus.

You will not find disbelievers in Krampus among anyone who has never heard of him.

That is a good point.

But it seems like a bit of a semantic cop-out.

Faith is always a choice.

The absence of faith isn't.

Something needs to be defined to believe in it, but the same can't be said for there to be a lack of belief in it.

Unless someone is choosing to actively disbelieve then sure, they would need to define what it is they are choosing not to believe in, but that's more like being anti-faith than lacking faith.

You can not believe in a god or gods even without knowing that someone has claimed they exist.

It's not the same as being anti, like said anti-islam, it's just without belief, aka, atheist.

Have you noticed the 'theis' part of atheism?

There is no atheism without that 'theism' bit. It is THAT bit that defines atheism. There is no atheism without it.

If you take the name as the definition only, not what it defines, then sure.

But that's being dishonest.

Atheism is disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

So you can have a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods if nobody has ever told you about them.

So you can be an atheist without having ever been told of the "theism".

Now to actively "disbelieve", the other possible definition then sure, you must know what you are actually disbelieving.

But to say atheism cannot exist with religion, it's simply untrue.

The point is that atheism is inconceivable without some conception of God.

Otherwise your pet rock is also an atheist, and your cat, since neither can conceive any ideas, let alone any idea of a god. You have to have some idea of war to be a pacifist, some idea of gods to be an atheist, some idea of witches not to believe in witches.

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Jasin

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #761 - Oct 31^st, 2023 at 5:18pm

SadKangaroo wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 3:08pm:

Jasin wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 2:29pm:

I'm not scared.
This topic was made to 'test the waters' on different opinions.
The fact that Atheists themselves refuse to admit who they are bias towards for want of embracing it fully and officially, as opposed to their long running Anti-Religious existence.

Not my fault you and Geoff fell into a bit of an obvious trap. Wink

It's only a "trap" if you're so close-minded that you're only accepting information that adheres to your beliefs no matter what is real.

Atheism is a lack of belief in God or gods.

It's in the name, it's clearly defined.

It's rich for you to claim others are refusing to admit anything with the blinkered stance you're taking here. You're all about setting traps and winning.

That's not to say atheists can't be anti-religion because they certainly can. I've never claimed to the contrary.

I've only ever said that atheism alone is not anti-religion, it's just the mindset of an individual who does not believe in God or gods.

To make any claim about atheism just isn't possible.

Tell me, what would it take for you to change your mind on your idea that to be an atheist, one must be anti-religion?

Are you having another Sook lefty Yes voter? Huh

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 48853 Gender:	Re: Does Atheism really exist? Reply #762 - Oct 31^st, 2023 at 5:23pm I'll reveal soon what Atheism's anti-religious stance has become bias towards instead. Julia Gillard gave it away, even if she failed to personify it as an Atheist. Most Atheists don't know who or what they are besides being against Religion as if they want to destroy it.
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Frank

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #763 - Oct 31^st, 2023 at 6:55pm

SadKangaroo wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 3:08pm:

Jasin wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 2:29pm:

I'm not scared.
This topic was made to 'test the waters' on different opinions.
The fact that Atheists themselves refuse to admit who they are bias towards for want of embracing it fully and officially, as opposed to their long running Anti-Religious existence.

Not my fault you and Geoff fell into a bit of an obvious trap. Wink

It's only a "trap" if you're so close-minded that you're only accepting information that adheres to your beliefs no matter what is real.

Atheism is a lack of belief in God or gods.

It's in the name, it's clearly defined.

You can't have a lack of something without having a concept of WHAT you are lacking.

You can't lack shoes without having a concept of shoes. You can't have e a lack of anything without having a concept of WHAT you lack.

Lack - it's a transitive verb. When a noun, it is followed by a preposition. In either form it needs a thing - god - to signify what is lacking.

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SadKangaroo

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Re: Does Atheism really exist?
Reply #764 - Oct 31^st, 2023 at 8:17pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 3:26pm:

SadKangaroo wrote on Oct 31^st, 2023 at 3:00pm:

If you take the name as the definition only, not what it defines, then sure.

But that's being dishonest.

Atheism is disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

So you can have a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods if nobody has ever told you about them.

So you can be an atheist without having ever been told of the "theism".

Now to actively "disbelieve", the other possible definition then sure, you must know what you are actually disbelieving.

But to say atheism cannot exist with religion, it's simply untrue.

You're being glib about the definition of atheism.

If it actually signified something other than cognisant disbelief in god(s), then it would be a meaningless term - without substance. You may as well define a person in a coma as an atheist.

Yes, exactly. They would be.

For them to "preach" about their athism however then yes of course they would need to know it.

But in the strictest definition, it is the lack of a belief in God or Gods. Not a denial of a God or Gods.

It can be that, but it's not only that.

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Poll
Question: Atheism - how do YOU define it?
Not believing in GOD? 6 (50.0%) Believing in NO GOD? 6 (50.0%) Total votes: 12 « Created by: Lisa Jones on: Sep 28^th, 2023 at 11:29am »