Australian Politics Forum - The human cost in Gaza

Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 47299 Gender:	Re: The human cost in Gaza Reply #1170 - Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:13am Zionists should have chosen Tasmania. Rich, well watered lands, more than enough space, no quarrels with anyone. Instead Zionists turned into nazis to live in a land they were evicted from 2000 years earlier. Now we have a bloodbath that could become even worse.
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Bobby.

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Re: The human cost in Gaza
Reply #1171 - Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:13am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:09am:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:02am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 6:58am:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 13^th, 2023 at 10:39pm:

It turns out that placing the Jews in Israel surrounded by 70 million Arabs
at the time - was not such a good idea.
We've had the constant threat of a nuclear war starting there since about 1973.

In terms of the European societies of 1945, it was the best possible solution.

Nazis didn't invent European Jew hate, it is baked-in to European cultures.

What surprised the SS was how enthusiastic many non-Germans were with assisting Nazis in the rounding-up, expelling, and murder of local Jews.

By the end of WW2 in Europe, there was no place in European societies for Jewish communities - either due to the revenge instinct, in the extreme, within those communities towards Nazis and their many local collaborators, or due to the guilt factor within the non-Jewish local communities over those collaborators - what the Dutch refer to as those who were 'right' vs those who were 'wrong'.

That there was a possible 'homeland' where all Jews could migrate after 1945 - if it hadn't already existed, Europeans would have had to invent it.

But why couldn't the Jews have had a country some place in Europe?

Example:

Israel area 22,145 km²

France Area 551,695 km²

Israel is only 1/24th the size of France -
that's not much of a loss of French territory to be given away.

That'd be fine... Except for the French.

Outside the neutral countries, all other states in Europe had been overrun, occupied and carved up by an invading foreign army. Why would the French accept the loss of territory as compensation to others for what an invading force had done?

Because they never won their territory back -
the Yanks and British armies did.

How about if the Jews were given a bit of France and a bit of Germany
on the borders of both after the war?

Anything would have been better than sticking them in Israel and the mess we're in now.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49081 At my desk.	Re: The human cost in Gaza Reply #1172 - Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:16am Bobby, what makes you think Muslims need their hatred of Jews to make a mess?
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Bobby.

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Re: The human cost in Gaza
Reply #1173 - Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:18am

freediver wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:16am:

Bobby, what makes you think Muslims need their hatred of Jews to make a mess?

The Jews were never going to get along where they were put in Israel.
The Arabs always hated them - it's even in their book to hate Jews.

It's taken the threat of nuclear weapons to keep them there -
weapons which could easily be used any time now and start WW3.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: The human cost in Gaza
Reply #1174 - Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:19am

Bobby. wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:13am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:09am:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:02am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 6:58am:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 13^th, 2023 at 10:39pm:

It turns out that placing the Jews in Israel surrounded by 70 million Arabs
at the time - was not such a good idea.
We've had the constant threat of a nuclear war starting there since about 1973.

In terms of the European societies of 1945, it was the best possible solution.

Nazis didn't invent European Jew hate, it is baked-in to European cultures.

What surprised the SS was how enthusiastic many non-Germans were with assisting Nazis in the rounding-up, expelling, and murder of local Jews.

By the end of WW2 in Europe, there was no place in European societies for Jewish communities - either due to the revenge instinct, in the extreme, within those communities towards Nazis and their many local collaborators, or due to the guilt factor within the non-Jewish local communities over those collaborators - what the Dutch refer to as those who were 'right' vs those who were 'wrong'.

That there was a possible 'homeland' where all Jews could migrate after 1945 - if it hadn't already existed, Europeans would have had to invent it.

But why couldn't the Jews have had a country some place in Europe?

Example:

Israel area 22,145 km²

France Area 551,695 km²

Israel is only 1/24th the size of France -
that's not much of a loss of French territory to be given away.

That'd be fine... Except for the French.

Outside the neutral countries, all other states in Europe had been overrun, occupied and carved up by an invading foreign army. Why would the French accept the loss of territory as compensation to others for what an invading force had done?

Because they never won their territory back -
the Yanks and British armies did.

How about if the Jews were given a bit of France and a bit of Germany
on the borders of both after the war?

Anything would have been better than sticking them in Israel and the mess we're in now.

What IF scenarios are for those who sit in comfortable armchairs. They’re totally useless.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Lisa Jones

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Re: The human cost in Gaza
Reply #1175 - Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:22am

Bobby. wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:18am:

freediver wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:16am:

Bobby, what makes you think Muslims need their hatred of Jews to make a mess?

The Jews were never going to get along where they were put in Israel.
The Arabs always hated them - it's even in their book to hate Jews.

It's taken the threat of nuclear weapons to keep them there -
weapons which could easily be used any time now and start WW3.

Bobby .... read what Freediver posted to you. Your answer does not address it.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Bobby.

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Re: The human cost in Gaza
Reply #1176 - Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:23am

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:19am:

What IF scenarios are for those who sit in comfortable armchairs. They’re totally useless.

Not really -
they could still be given some other territory right now but no country wants to -
everyone would prefer that WW3 looms over all our heads all the time
due to nuclear weapons in Israel.
Have you heard of the Samson Option?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.' I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third.
We have the capability to take the world down with us.
And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The human cost in Gaza
Reply #1177 - Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:26am

Bobby. wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:13am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:09am:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:02am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 6:58am:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 13^th, 2023 at 10:39pm:

It turns out that placing the Jews in Israel surrounded by 70 million Arabs
at the time - was not such a good idea.
We've had the constant threat of a nuclear war starting there since about 1973.

In terms of the European societies of 1945, it was the best possible solution.

Nazis didn't invent European Jew hate, it is baked-in to European cultures.

What surprised the SS was how enthusiastic many non-Germans were with assisting Nazis in the rounding-up, expelling, and murder of local Jews.

By the end of WW2 in Europe, there was no place in European societies for Jewish communities - either due to the revenge instinct, in the extreme, within those communities towards Nazis and their many local collaborators, or due to the guilt factor within the non-Jewish local communities over those collaborators - what the Dutch refer to as those who were 'right' vs those who were 'wrong'.

That there was a possible 'homeland' where all Jews could migrate after 1945 - if it hadn't already existed, Europeans would have had to invent it.

But why couldn't the Jews have had a country some place in Europe?

Example:

Israel area 22,145 km²

France Area 551,695 km²

Israel is only 1/24th the size of France -
that's not much of a loss of French territory to be given away.

That'd be fine... Except for the French.

Outside the neutral countries, all other states in Europe had been overrun, occupied and carved up by an invading foreign army. Why would the French accept the loss of territory as compensation to others for what an invading force had done?

Because they never won their territory back -
the Yanks and British armies did.

How about if the Jews were given a bit of France and a bit of Germany
on the borders of both after the war?

Anything would have been better than sticking them in Israel and the mess we're in now.

No one in 1945 Europe was focussed on 2023 - after the catastrophe of WW2, Europeans were dealing with the urgency of the moment.

There was no appetite within any country to cede territory to create a European Israel - and even if there was, why do you think that there would have been peace in Europe in 2023 despite the existence of a European Israel?

Is it that hard to imagine that the focus of conflict by 2023 would just have been relocated from the Middle East to Europe?

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Lisa Jones

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Re: The human cost in Gaza
Reply #1178 - Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:26am

Bobby. wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:23am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:19am:

What IF scenarios are for those who sit in comfortable armchairs. They’re totally useless.

Not really -
they could still be given some other territory right now but no country wants to -
everyone would prefer that WW3 looms over all our heads all the time
due to nuclear weapons in Israel.
Have you heard of the Samson Option?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.' I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third.
We have the capability to take the world down with us.
And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.

You’re a dreamer. Also that comment indicates a total lack of knowledge about Israel and its past.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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freediver

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At my desk.

Re: The human cost in Gaza
Reply #1179 - Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:28am

Bobby. wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:18am:

freediver wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:16am:

Bobby, what makes you think Muslims need their hatred of Jews to make a mess?

The Jews were never going to get along where they were put in Israel.
The Arabs always hated them - it's even in their book to hate Jews.

It's taken the threat of nuclear weapons to keep them there -
weapons which could easily be used any time now and start WW3.

Since Israel was created, the US and allies have invaded Iraq twice and Afghanistan once. There have been plenty of other wars in the middle east, some of which major powers got involved in. Muslims slaughter and oppress each other on a regular basis. There is a lethal divide between Sunni and Shia. We even had a resurgent Islamic state that almost got away from us.

Why, in the midst of all that, do the Jews bother you so much? The neighbouring Muslim countries are actually on Israel's side now. It's Hamas against the world.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The human cost in Gaza
Reply #1180 - Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:31am

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:13am:

Zionists should have chosen Tasmania. Rich, well watered lands, more than enough space, no quarrels with anyone.

As if Zionists were at a territory smorgasbord where they could just choose.

Tasmania is an integral part of the Commonwealth's territory, do you think there might have been many Australians who would disapprove of ceding territory to, and allow the creation of, a foreign state by a foreign people?

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Bobby.

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Re: The human cost in Gaza
Reply #1181 - Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:39am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:26am:

No one in 1945 Europe was focussed on 2023 - after the catastrophe of WW2, Europeans were dealing with the urgency of the moment.

There was no appetite within any country to cede territory to create a European Israel - and even if there was, why do you think that there would have been peace in Europe in 2023 despite the existence of a European Israel?

Is it that hard to imagine that the focus of conflict by 2023 would just have been relocated from the Middle East to Europe?

Not really - why couldn't Germany cede some territory for a Jewish state?
It proves that the Germans weren't truly sorry for killing 6 milling Jews in WW2 -
they just played lip service to it and shoved them in Palestine to get rid of them
in an area that was surrounded by 70 million Arabs at the time who hated them.

World politics is total nonsense in my opinion - it's full of lies and deceit.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The human cost in Gaza
Reply #1182 - Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:44am

Bobby. wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:39am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:26am:

No one in 1945 Europe was focussed on 2023 - after the catastrophe of WW2, Europeans were dealing with the urgency of the moment.

There was no appetite within any country to cede territory to create a European Israel - and even if there was, why do you think that there would have been peace in Europe in 2023 despite the existence of a European Israel?

Is it that hard to imagine that the focus of conflict by 2023 would just have been relocated from the Middle East to Europe?

Not really - why couldn't Germany cede some territory for a Jewish state?
It proves that the Germans weren't truly sorry for killing 6 milling Jews in WW2 -
they just played lip service to it and shoved them in Palestine to get rid of them
in an area that was surrounded by 70 million Arabs at the time who hated them.

World politics is total nonsense in my opinion - it's full of lies and deceit.

Most Europeans had little concern for Jews. European countries where Jewish communites were established all have histories of Jewish persecution.

Many may have have been revolted about how the Nazis went about the removal of Jews from Europe, but were agreeable to the notion that 'something had to be done about the Jews'.

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Bobby.

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Re: The human cost in Gaza
Reply #1183 - Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:48am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:44am:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:39am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:26am:

No one in 1945 Europe was focussed on 2023 - after the catastrophe of WW2, Europeans were dealing with the urgency of the moment.

There was no appetite within any country to cede territory to create a European Israel - and even if there was, why do you think that there would have been peace in Europe in 2023 despite the existence of a European Israel?

Is it that hard to imagine that the focus of conflict by 2023 would just have been relocated from the Middle East to Europe?

Not really - why couldn't Germany cede some territory for a Jewish state?
It proves that the Germans weren't truly sorry for killing 6 milling Jews in WW2 -
they just played lip service to it and shoved them in Palestine to get rid of them
in an area that was surrounded by 70 million Arabs at the time who hated them.

World politics is total nonsense in my opinion - it's full of lies and deceit.

Most Europeans had little concern for Jews. European countries where Jewish communites were established all have histories of Jewish persecution.

Many may have have been revolted about how the Nazis went about the removal of Jews from Europe, but were agreeable to the notion that 'something had to be done about the Jews'.

The Jews have never been popular anywhere they've gone.
What is happening now in Gaza will only make them less popular
as already over 11,500 people have been killed
including 4,500 innocent children and babies.
Half of Gaza has been turned into rubble -
the equivalent tonnage of bombs have been dropped to exceed the blast at Hiroshima.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The human cost in Gaza
Reply #1184 - Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:55am

Bobby. wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:48am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:44am:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:39am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 14^th, 2023 at 7:26am:

No one in 1945 Europe was focussed on 2023 - after the catastrophe of WW2, Europeans were dealing with the urgency of the moment.

There was no appetite within any country to cede territory to create a European Israel - and even if there was, why do you think that there would have been peace in Europe in 2023 despite the existence of a European Israel?

Is it that hard to imagine that the focus of conflict by 2023 would just have been relocated from the Middle East to Europe?

Not really - why couldn't Germany cede some territory for a Jewish state?
It proves that the Germans weren't truly sorry for killing 6 milling Jews in WW2 -
they just played lip service to it and shoved them in Palestine to get rid of them
in an area that was surrounded by 70 million Arabs at the time who hated them.

World politics is total nonsense in my opinion - it's full of lies and deceit.

Most Europeans had little concern for Jews. European countries where Jewish communites were established all have histories of Jewish persecution.

Many may have have been revolted about how the Nazis went about the removal of Jews from Europe, but were agreeable to the notion that 'something had to be done about the Jews'.

The Jews have never been popular anywhere they've gone.
What is happening now in Gaza will only make them less popular
as already over 11,500 people have been killed
including 4,500 innocent children and babies.
Half of Gaza has been turned into rubble -
the equivalent tonnage of bombs have been dropped to exceed the blast at Hiroshima.

Jew hate was even baked into the Catholic liturgy:

Oremus pro perfidis Iudeis: ut omnipotens Deus velum auferat de cordibus eorum; ut et ipsi confiteantur Jesum Christum Dominum nostrum.

Let us pray for the perfidious Jews: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts; that they too may confess Jesus Christ our Lord.

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