Australian Politics Forum - THE HIDDEN COST OF THE GAZA WAR

Frank

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Re: THE HIDDEN COST OF THE GAZA WAR
Reply #90 - Nov 25^th, 2023 at 7:15pm

John Smith wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 5:38pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 5:14pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 3:22pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 2:29pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 10:50am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 10:45am:

We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR

NO country should have a 'veto' power

Kiribati is equal to the US, North Korea is equal to Russia, Haiti is equal to France, etc, etc.

You're equal to a roach? Does that count?

Well, you are a thick moron which definitely counts.

Go and sweep or do some concreting, thicko.

Well that was a wasted effort.
You were bullshitting when you said you worked at a uni, weren't you?

I told you to sweep or do some concreting.

We are not here to discuss or accommodate your inferiority complex.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: THE HIDDEN COST OF THE GAZA WAR
Reply #91 - Nov 26^th, 2023 at 9:30am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 3:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

Jasin wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 2:39pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 10:45am:

Jasin wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 6:58am:

If you think the Civilians of Palestine were 'innocent',
you're a dead set Fool.

We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR, resulting in the continuous war in Palestine.

After Israel was created out of other peoples' land.....

Wake up GD.
Israel existed as a nation (as Judah as well) in that region of the world long before Moslems were even created.
It's a justified reclaimation.

Justified by whom?

Not by the people from whom the land was taken.

Yes. Tibet comes to mind.

But then, all states' territorial borders are challenged by other peoples.

Yes..until 1946, with the signing of the UN Charter by all nations.

(I won't repeat here the effect of the veto power demanded by the great powers in the UNSC).

Tibet was conquered by the Qing dynasty; the League of Nations gave the Palestine Mandate to Britain....BEFORE 1946. etc etc.

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« Last Edit: Nov 26^th, 2023 at 9:45am by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: THE HIDDEN COST OF THE GAZA WAR
Reply #92 - Nov 26^th, 2023 at 9:40am

Jasin wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 3:24pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 3:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

Jasin wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 2:39pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 10:45am:

Jasin wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 6:58am:

If you think the Civilians of Palestine were 'innocent',
you're a dead set Fool.

We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR, resulting in the continuous war in Palestine.

After Israel was created out of other peoples' land.....

Wake up GD.
Israel existed as a nation (as Judah as well) in that region of the world long before Moslems were even created.
It's a justified reclaimation.

Justified by whom?

Not by the people from whom the land was taken.

Yes. Tibet comes to mind.

But then, all states' territorial borders are challenged by other peoples.

That's exactly right ME.

ME is ignoring the "new world order" established in 1946 to "save Mankind from the scourge of war", which all nations signed up to. The failure of UN machinery to achieve it doesn't alter the fact: "the acquisition of territory by force is inadmissible" under international law, since 1946.

Quote:

And the Palestinians are 'imploding' and causing their own failure.

The Palestinians are entitled to their own state as stated in UN res 242.

Quote:

They will 'lose' their own country, rather than Israel having to conquer it by unprovoked invasion.

The US-promoted Oslo Accords never granted Palestinians their sovereignty. Hence the failure of the Accords.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: THE HIDDEN COST OF THE GAZA WAR
Reply #93 - Nov 26^th, 2023 at 9:44am

Jasin wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 3:22pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

Jasin wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 2:39pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 10:45am:

Jasin wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 6:58am:

If you think the Civilians of Palestine were 'innocent',
you're a dead set Fool.

We are all "fools" for accepting the demand for the UNSC veto power by the US and USSR, resulting in the continuous war in Palestine.

After Israel was created out of other peoples' land.....

Wake up GD.
Israel existed as a nation (as Judah as well) in that region of the world long before Moslems were even created.
It's a justified reclaimation.

Justified by whom?

Not by the people from whom the land was taken.

And ancient Israel of course came into being via conquest of territory by force .... "inadmissible" since 1946 (see the UN Charter).

Go back to the BC era dude. Grin

I did .....have you forgotten David took Jerusalem by force, c.1100BC?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: THE HIDDEN COST OF THE GAZA WAR
Reply #94 - Nov 26^th, 2023 at 9:46am

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 9:30am:

Yes..until 1946, with the signing of the UN Charter by all nations.

(I won't repeat here the effect of the veto power demanded by the great powers in the UNSC).

Tibet was conquered by the Qing dynasty; the League of Nations gave the Palestine Mandate to Britain....BEFORE 1946. etc tec.

Instinctive territoriality and instinctive expansionism pre-dates human history and are fundamental features of our nature.

Sure, Emperor Fug Yu might have conquered Tibet sometime in the past, but that does not logically give any modern state, hundreds of years later, the right to that territory.

However, what is acknowledged is that if a state/people can invade another, annex territory, and hold it against insurrection, then the annexed territory is usually conceded, by the concensus of regional/world states, to the invaders cum conquerors.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: THE HIDDEN COST OF THE GAZA WAR
Reply #95 - Nov 26^th, 2023 at 9:49am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 25^th, 2023 at 5:07pm:

No nation-state is guaranteed to exist in perpetuity - they exist by the will of the regional/world order of the day.

Yes , and in 1946, a new world order came into being, signed by all nations.....see my previous post.

Quote:

What does exist in perpetuity are multiple claims to the same territory, so long as there are peoples whose collective memory asserts those claims.

See above.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: THE HIDDEN COST OF THE GAZA WAR
Reply #96 - Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:06am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 9:46am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 9:30am:

Yes..until 1946, with the signing of the UN Charter by all nations.

(I won't repeat here the effect of the veto power demanded by the great powers in the UNSC).

Tibet was conquered by the Qing dynasty; the League of Nations gave the Palestine Mandate to Britain....BEFORE 1946. etc, etc.

Instinctive territoriality and instinctive expansionism pre-dates human history

True; it's 'natural law' in the animal kingdom.

Quote:

and are fundamental features of our nature.

A dismal conservative ideation; "nature" is subject to reason, among homo sapiens.

Quote:

Sure, Emperor Fug Yu might have conquered Tibet sometime in the past, but that does not logically give any modern state, hundreds of years later, the right to that territory.

Just as Israeli claims to Palestine are entirely bogus.

But Taiwan and Tibet are recognized by the UN as Chinese territory, because they were Chinese territories when the UN was created in 1946. The CCP reasserted that sovereignty in 1950, after 50 years of chaos in China.

Quote:

However, what is acknowledged is that if a state/people can invade another, annex territory, and hold it against insurrection......

All 'inadmissible' under internatinal law, since 1946.

Quote:

.....then the annexed territory is usually conceded, by the concensus of regional/world states, to the invaders cum conquerors.

See above; but in any case a majority of UN members, ie all nations of the world, are in favour of UN res 242.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: THE HIDDEN COST OF THE GAZA WAR
Reply #97 - Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:12am

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:06am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 9:46am:

[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1700539202/91#91 date=1700955017]

Yes..until 1946, with the signing of the UN Charter by all nations.

(I won't repeat here the effect of the veto power demanded by the great powers in the UNSC).

Tibet was conquered by the Qing dynasty; the League of Nations gave the Palestine Mandate to Britain....BEFORE 1946. etc, etc.

Instinctive territoriality and instinctive expansionism pre-dates human history Quote:

True; it's 'natural law' in the animal kingdom.

and are fundamental features of our nature. [quote]

A dismal conservative ideation; "nature" is subject to reason, among homosapiens.

[quote]Sure, Emperor Fug Yu might have conquered Tibet sometime in the past, but that does not logically give any modern state, hundreds of years later, the right to that territory.

Just as Israeli claims to Palestine are entirely bogus.

But Taiwan and Tibet are recognized by the UN as Chinese territory, because they were Chinese territories when the UN was created in 1946. The CCP reasserted that sovereignty in 1950, after 50 years of chaos in China.

Quote:

However, what is acknowledged is that if a state/people can invade another, annex territory, and hold it against insurrection......

All 'inadmissible' under internatinal law, since 1946.

Quote:

then the annexed territory is usually conceded, by the concensus of regional/world states, to the invaders cum conquerors.

See above; but in any case a majority of UN members, ie all nations of the world, are in favour of UN res 242.

Human nature pre-dates 1946.

What world orders do is accommodate and manage human nature - they cannot create desirable, and cannot expunge undesirable components.

And world orders come and go.

People who have not spent most of their life isolated understand this relatively early in life.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: THE HIDDEN COST OF THE GAZA WAR
Reply #98 - Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:20am

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:06am:

Just as Israeli claims to Palestine are entirely bogus.

But Taiwan and Tibet are recognized by the UN as Chinese territory, because they were Chinese territories when the UN was created in 1946. The CCP reasserted that sovereignty in 1950, after 50 years of chaos in China.

Jewish claims to Palestine is based on territorial right by religious affiliation - not a bogus claim.

With Taiwan and Tibet, when the modern Chinese state collapses, it's almost certain that the world order of the day will quickly recognise Taiwan and Tibet as independent sovereign states.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: THE HIDDEN COST OF THE GAZA WAR
Reply #99 - Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:29am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 26^th, 2023 at 10:12am: