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Defence (Read 5561 times)
Frank
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Re: Defence
Reply #30 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 8:02am
 

The suspended death sentence, now likely to mean life imprisonment, passed by the Chinese courts, in the service of the Chinese Communist Party, against Australian academic and writer Yang Hengjun is a sign of the utter contempt Beijing has for Australia, for human rights and the rule of law, and for international agreements such as those providing for consular access to our citizens.

It’s a tragedy for a man guilty of nothing worse than being a brave dissident. It’s also a stark reminder of the nature of the government that is, second only to the United States, the biggest military power on Earth, and that seeks complete dominance of our region.

This underlines the extreme irresponsibility of the Albanese government’s failure to provide for any enhanced Australian defence capability over the next decade. Even our existing capabilities are degrading and disappearing. It’s a secondary scandal that the nation is not more agitated about this. It indicates a bipartisan, cultural collapse in Australia, which no longer seems to take its own defence seriously.

The promise of nuclear-powered submarines under AUKUS slowly becoming available in a decade’s time has become an excuse for both sides of politics to do nothing, commit to nothing, and say nothing of substance on actual defence capabilities.
...
In a period of acute strategic vulnerability, with the US more stretched than at any time since World War II, we have decided to do nothing in our own defence interests
...
Dibb told me: “It is blatantly obvious nothing much is happening in decision-making in defence, when the world is facing the most dangerous strategic circumstances since World War II. Where is the implementation on anything? We’ve created a bureaucratic monster.”

Dibb referred me to figures that show the mind boggling proliferation of “star-ranked” officers in the Australian Defence Force over the past 20 years. It’s nearly doubled from 120 to 219. That’s one star-ranked officer for every 260 other ranks, whereas in the US it’s one to 1526, and in the UK one to 1522.

...
“We are quintessentially in a maritime threat environment, which means not just ships and submarines but also air power over water. The priority must be maritime strike power, in particular long-range maritime strike. That means missiles with ranges not of hundreds of kilometres but thousands of kilometres. We’re putting in some missile orders, but in very small numbers.

“Drones are clearly a capability we need ourselves. Not only drones but the exquisite intelligence you need to target them accurately. And we need to be able to protect ourselves from drones.”

I pointed out to Dibb the leaked Defence document showing the department was planning to take eight years to evaluate the best type of counter-drone capability to acquire.

He replied: “It takes years to make a decision on anything. It’s worse than crazy, it’s bordering on criminal.”


Defence Minster Richard Marles and Defence Industry Minister Pat Conroy do not effectively run Defence. Defence runs them. This is a personal failure for both men but it’s partly due to the bizarre ministerial structure Labor has put in place.

Defence is the most demanding portfolio in government yet Marles is also Deputy Prime Minister. During Albanese’s frequent absences, he’s Acting PM. Marles is himself an enthusiastic and frequent traveller on defence diplomacy. He’s often not across the detail of defence equipment and is ineffective in leading the department.

The huge portfolio of Defence Industry, responsible for billions upon billions of dollars, is with Conroy. He’s a junior minister, lacking cabinet status, but also lacking a cabinet minister’s staff allocation. Worse, he simultaneously has a second portfolio, so Defence Industry is notionally led by a half-time junior minister with no staff.

In some ways Defence loves this lack of ministerial supervision. But it’s an unmitigated disaster for the nation.
Greg Sheridan.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/this-is-a-death-sentence-for-our-def...



A bipartisan, cultural collapse in Australia, which no longer seems to take its own defence seriously.


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Belgarion
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Re: Defence
Reply #31 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 9:45am
 
Exactly. Not helped by the fact that the upper echelons of the ADF are filled by uniformed yes-men who have overseen the implementation of insanity like 'cultural ambassadors' and 'equity and diversity advisors' at the expense of real capability.
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Re: Defence
Reply #32 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 10:27am
 
Frank wrote on Dec 14th, 2023 at 8:44am:
The US Navy has asked Australia to send a warship to the Red Sea as part of an expanded international task force, in response to growing attacks on shipping by Iran-backed militia that are threatening vital global sea lanes.

The move, under consideration by the Albanese government, would mark a major escalation in Australia’s response to the unfolding crisis in the Middle East and reflect fears the conflict could become a region-wide war.

Any Australian warship sent to the Red Sea in this crisis would be entering a hot war zone where it could easily find itself fired upon and forced to fire back amid a volatile and fast-changing security situation.


... and with no drone defence apart from the close-in defence system .... which doesn't hit bombs dropped from drones... though existing systems could take out drones.... but under what rules?

Down 'em All!  Let God Sort 'Em Out!!  'Allied' drones would have an IFF system.
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Grappler Deep State Feller
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Re: Defence
Reply #33 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 10:31am
 
Frank wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 8:02am:
The suspended death sentence, now likely to mean life imprisonment, passed by the Chinese courts, in the service of the Chinese Communist Party, against Australian academic and writer Yang Hengjun is a sign of the utter contempt Beijing has for Australia, for human rights and the rule of law, and for international agreements such as those providing for consular access to our citizens.

It’s a tragedy for a man guilty of nothing worse than being a brave dissident. It’s also a stark reminder of the nature of the government that is, second only to the United States, the biggest military power on Earth, and that seeks complete dominance of our region.

This underlines the extreme irresponsibility of the Albanese government’s failure to provide for any enhanced Australian defence capability over the next decade. Even our existing capabilities are degrading and disappearing. It’s a secondary scandal that the nation is not more agitated about this. It indicates a bipartisan, cultural collapse in Australia, which no longer seems to take its own defence seriously.

The promise of nuclear-powered submarines under AUKUS slowly becoming available in a decade’s time has become an excuse for both sides of politics to do nothing, commit to nothing, and say nothing of substance on actual defence capabilities.
...
In a period of acute strategic vulnerability, with the US more stretched than at any time since World War II, we have decided to do nothing in our own defence interests
...
Dibb told me: “It is blatantly obvious nothing much is happening in decision-making in defence, when the world is facing the most dangerous strategic circumstances since World War II. Where is the implementation on anything? We’ve created a bureaucratic monster.”

Dibb referred me to figures that show the mind boggling proliferation of “star-ranked” officers in the Australian Defence Force over the past 20 years. It’s nearly doubled from 120 to 219. That’s one star-ranked officer for every 260 other ranks, whereas in the US it’s one to 1526, and in the UK one to 1522.

...
“We are quintessentially in a maritime threat environment, which means not just ships and submarines but also air power over water. The priority must be maritime strike power, in particular long-range maritime strike. That means missiles with ranges not of hundreds of kilometres but thousands of kilometres. We’re putting in some missile orders, but in very small numbers.

“Drones are clearly a capability we need ourselves. Not only drones but the exquisite intelligence you need to target them accurately. And we need to be able to protect ourselves from drones.”

I pointed out to Dibb the leaked Defence document showing the department was planning to take eight years to evaluate the best type of counter-drone capability to acquire.

He replied: “It takes years to make a decision on anything. It’s worse than crazy, it’s bordering on criminal.”


Defence Minster Richard Marles and Defence Industry Minister Pat Conroy do not effectively run Defence. Defence runs them. This is a personal failure for both men but it’s partly due to the bizarre ministerial structure Labor has put in place.

Defence is the most demanding portfolio in government yet Marles is also Deputy Prime Minister. During Albanese’s frequent absences, he’s Acting PM. Marles is himself an enthusiastic and frequent traveller on defence diplomacy. He’s often not across the detail of defence equipment and is ineffective in leading the department.

The huge portfolio of Defence Industry, responsible for billions upon billions of dollars, is with Conroy. He’s a junior minister, lacking cabinet status, but also lacking a cabinet minister’s staff allocation. Worse, he simultaneously has a second portfolio, so Defence Industry is notionally led by a half-time junior minister with no staff.

In some ways Defence loves this lack of ministerial supervision. But it’s an unmitigated disaster for the nation.
Greg Sheridan.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/this-is-a-death-sentence-for-our-def...



A bipartisan, cultural collapse in Australia, which no longer seems to take its own defence seriously.




It's 'showing the badge' and ensuring that Australia knows its place as second class.... as an ancient 'civilisation' China remains very primitive in many ways.... and is still essentially governed by warlords.... though they deny it .... and in many ways, women are still second class... though they deny it..... and illegitimate children are not accorded even medical benefits...

For a 'civilised' place it is very God-forsaken.... though many of its people are excellent.... just... same as here ... not their ruling self-appointed elite.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Deep State Feller
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Re: Defence
Reply #34 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 10:33am
 
"This underlines the extreme irresponsibility of the Albanese government’s failure to provide for any enhanced Australian defence capability over the next decade"

I would suggest we need to look at that in terms of 'government' overall in recent history - not just Wobbly Albo.
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Brian Ross
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Re: Defence
Reply #35 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 1:52pm
 
Belgarion wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 9:45am:
Exactly. Not helped by the fact that the upper echelons of the ADF are filled by uniformed yes-men who have overseen the implementation of insanity like 'cultural ambassadors' and 'equity and diversity advisors' at the expense of real capability.


Like what, Belgarion?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Frank
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Re: Defence
Reply #36 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 2:25pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 1:52pm:
Belgarion wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 9:45am:
Exactly. Not helped by the fact that the upper echelons of the ADF are filled by uniformed yes-men who have overseen the implementation of insanity like 'cultural ambassadors' and 'equity and diversity advisors' at the expense of real capability.


Like what, Belgarion?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



Figures compiled for the Greens by the Parliamentary Library show a tremendously top-heavy Australian Defence Force with the number of flag officers almost doubling since 2003 from 119 to 219.

This means there is a one star level officer for every 260 full-time uniformed members. This is way out of whack with comparable militaries around the world.

The most senior level of officers in the ADF with a 'star rank', Generals, Admirals and Air Commodores, have multiplied while enlisted numbers have gone backwards falling from 62,429 in 1983 to 41,079 in 2023.

This is part of a broader trend towards a top-heavy military with the proportion of officers to enlisted members doubling from 14 to 28% between 1983 and 2023. International comparisons on senior pay and numbers are below.

Senator David Shoebridge, Greens Defence Spokesperson, said:  "When you have so much gold braid and so few troops it feels like a Bbwianesque satire, not a military."
https://www.miragenews.com/australian-defence-leadership-collapses-under-1135059...

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Belgarion
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Re: Defence
Reply #37 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 2:44pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 1:52pm:
Belgarion wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 9:45am:
Exactly. Not helped by the fact that the upper echelons of the ADF are filled by uniformed yes-men who have overseen the implementation of insanity like 'cultural ambassadors' and 'equity and diversity advisors' at the expense of real capability.


Like what, Belgarion?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Proper technical training, less reliance on civilian contractors for training, maintenance and logistics.  Reintroduction of a proper superannuation scheme to reward long service, no lowering of the initial entry standards but streamlining the ridiculously convoluted recruiting process, a return to the real values of the ADF -  less of the emphasis on 'diversity' and more on teamwork and comradeship.

That will do for a start. From there we can re-build what has been lost and stop hemorrhaging people as we are now.    
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Brian Ross
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Re: Defence
Reply #38 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 2:47pm
 
Frank wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 2:25pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 1:52pm:
Belgarion wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 9:45am:
Exactly. Not helped by the fact that the upper echelons of the ADF are filled by uniformed yes-men who have overseen the implementation of insanity like 'cultural ambassadors' and 'equity and diversity advisors' at the expense of real capability.


Like what, Belgarion?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Figures compiled for the Greens by the Parliamentary Library show a tremendously top-heavy Australian Defence Force with the number of flag officers almost doubling since 2003 from 119 to 219.

This means there is a one star level officer for every 260 full-time uniformed members. This is way out of whack with comparable militaries around the world.

The most senior level of officers in the ADF with a 'star rank', Generals, Admirals and Air Commodores, have multiplied while enlisted numbers have gone backwards falling from 62,429 in 1983 to 41,079 in 2023.

This is part of a broader trend towards a top-heavy military with the proportion of officers to enlisted members doubling from 14 to 28% between 1983 and 2023. International comparisons on senior pay and numbers are below.

Senator David Shoebridge, Greens Defence Spokesperson, said:  "When you have so much gold braid and so few troops it feels like a Bbwianesque satire, not a military."
https://www.miragenews.com/australian-defence-leadership-collapses-under-1135059...


Oh, dearie, dearie, me, that has nothing to do with capabilities, Soren.  You need to learn English, it appears. I know it's your second language but you could at least make an effort.  Bloody immigrant.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Frank
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Re: Defence
Reply #39 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 3:25pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 2:47pm:
Frank wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 2:25pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 1:52pm:
Belgarion wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 9:45am:
Exactly. Not helped by the fact that the upper echelons of the ADF are filled by uniformed yes-men who have overseen the implementation of insanity like 'cultural ambassadors' and 'equity and diversity advisors' at the expense of real capability.


Like what, Belgarion?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Figures compiled for the Greens by the Parliamentary Library show a tremendously top-heavy Australian Defence Force with the number of flag officers almost doubling since 2003 from 119 to 219.

This means there is a one star level officer for every 260 full-time uniformed members. This is way out of whack with comparable militaries around the world.

The most senior level of officers in the ADF with a 'star rank', Generals, Admirals and Air Commodores, have multiplied while enlisted numbers have gone backwards falling from 62,429 in 1983 to 41,079 in 2023.

This is part of a broader trend towards a top-heavy military with the proportion of officers to enlisted members doubling from 14 to 28% between 1983 and 2023. International comparisons on senior pay and numbers are below.

Senator David Shoebridge, Greens Defence Spokesperson, said:  "When you have so much gold braid and so few troops it feels like a Bbwianesque satire, not a military."
https://www.miragenews.com/australian-defence-leadership-collapses-under-1135059...


Oh, dearie, dearie, me, that has nothing to do with capabilities, Soren.  You need to learn English, it appears. I know it's your second language but you could at least make an effort.  Bloody immigrant.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Your question to Belgarion wasn't about capability, eyewateringly stupid cockwomble, it was about the military being top-heavy at the expense of capability.

The article I posted from Sheridan details some oof the reasons for the lack of capability in the ADF.

Go back to sleep, drooling ****wit.

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Brian Ross
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Re: Defence
Reply #40 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 4:07pm
 
Belgarion wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 2:44pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 1:52pm:
Belgarion wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 9:45am:
Exactly. Not helped by the fact that the upper echelons of the ADF are filled by uniformed yes-men who have overseen the implementation of insanity like 'cultural ambassadors' and 'equity and diversity advisors' at the expense of real capability.


Like what, Belgarion?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Proper technical training, less reliance on civilian contractors for training, maintenance and logistics.  Reintroduction of a proper superannuation scheme to reward long service, no lowering of the initial entry standards but streamlining the ridiculously convoluted recruiting process, a return to the real values of the ADF -  less of the emphasis on 'diversity' and more on teamwork and comradeship.

That will do for a start. From there we can re-build what has been lost and stop hemorrhaging people as we are now.    


Sounds like a naval problem to me, the Army does not use that many civilian contractors for training.  Not sure about the RAAF.  Not sure why the Navy would be reliant on civvies but it might be a conscious decision to have sailors on duty, on board ships rather than wearing a uniform in front of a classroom.  Diversity is an important factor, it shows the ADF is not dominated by one ethnicity or class, there are no cries of the ADF being disproportionate, as the US Army was when the draft was in force.  Teamwork is important and no team could ignore the diversity of it's members.  In my time in the Army, we had Asians, Muslims, Greeks, Italians, Poms, Kiwis, Indigenous and Islanders, we all thought we were Australians and were treated as such.
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« Last Edit: Feb 7th, 2024 at 4:34pm by Brian Ross »  

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Brian Ross
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Re: Defence
Reply #41 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 4:08pm
 
Frank wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 3:25pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 2:47pm:
Frank wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 2:25pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 1:52pm:
Belgarion wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 9:45am:
Exactly. Not helped by the fact that the upper echelons of the ADF are filled by uniformed yes-men who have overseen the implementation of insanity like 'cultural ambassadors' and 'equity and diversity advisors' at the expense of real capability.


Like what, Belgarion?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Figures compiled for the Greens by the Parliamentary Library show a tremendously top-heavy Australian Defence Force with the number of flag officers almost doubling since 2003 from 119 to 219.

This means there is a one star level officer for every 260 full-time uniformed members. This is way out of whack with comparable militaries around the world.

The most senior level of officers in the ADF with a 'star rank', Generals, Admirals and Air Commodores, have multiplied while enlisted numbers have gone backwards falling from 62,429 in 1983 to 41,079 in 2023.

This is part of a broader trend towards a top-heavy military with the proportion of officers to enlisted members doubling from 14 to 28% between 1983 and 2023. International comparisons on senior pay and numbers are below.

Senator David Shoebridge, Greens Defence Spokesperson, said:  "When you have so much gold braid and so few troops it feels like a Bbwianesque satire, not a military."
https://www.miragenews.com/australian-defence-leadership-collapses-under-1135059...


Oh, dearie, dearie, me, that has nothing to do with capabilities, Soren.  You need to learn English, it appears. I know it's your second language but you could at least make an effort.  Bloody immigrant.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Your question to Belgarion wasn't about capability, eyewateringly stupid cockwomble, it was about the military being top-heavy at the expense of capability.

The article I posted from Sheridan details some oof the reasons for the lack of capability in the ADF.

Go back to sleep, drooling ****wit.


"Real capability", Soren.  Learn to read.  Sheesssh.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Frank
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Re: Defence
Reply #42 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 4:17pm
 
Frank wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 8:02am:
It’s a tragedy for a man guilty of nothing worse than being a brave dissident. It’s also a stark reminder of the nature of the government that is, second only to the United States, the biggest military power on Earth, and that seeks complete dominance of our region.

This underlines the extreme irresponsibility of the Albanese government’s failure to provide for any enhanced Australian defence capability over the next decade. Even our existing capabilities are degrading and disappearing. [highlight]It’s a secondary scandal that the nation is not more agitated about this. It indicates a bipartisan, cultural collapse in Australia, which no longer seems to take its own defence seriously.[/highlight]

The promise of nuclear-powered submarines under AUKUS slowly becoming available in a decade’s time has become an excuse for both sides of politics to do nothing, commit to nothing, and say nothing of substance on actual defence capabilities.
...
In a period of acute strategic vulnerability, with the US more stretched than at any time since World War II, we have decided to do nothing in our own defence interests
...
Dibb told me: “It is blatantly obvious nothing much is happening in decision-making in defence, when the world is facing the most dangerous strategic circumstances since World War II. Where is the implementation on anything? We’ve created a bureaucratic monster.”

Dibb referred me to figures that show the mind boggling proliferation of “star-ranked” officers in the Australian Defence Force over the past 20 years. It’s nearly doubled from 120 to 219. That’s one star-ranked officer for every 260 other ranks, whereas in the US it’s one to 1526, and in the UK one to 1522.

...
“We are quintessentially in a maritime threat environment, which means not just ships and submarines but also air power over water. The priority must be maritime strike power, in particular long-range maritime strike. That means missiles with ranges not of hundreds of kilometres but thousands of kilometres. We’re putting in some missile orders, but in very small numbers.

“Drones are clearly a capability we need ourselves. Not only drones but the exquisite intelligence you need to target them accurately. And we need to be able to protect ourselves from drones.”

I pointed out to Dibb the leaked Defence document showing the department was planning to take eight years to evaluate the best type of counter-drone capability to acquire.

He replied: “It takes years to make a decision on anything. It’s worse than crazy, it’s bordering on criminal.”


Defence Minster Richard Marles and Defence Industry Minister Pat Conroy do not effectively run Defence. Defence runs them. This is a personal failure for both men but it’s partly due to the bizarre ministerial structure Labor has put in place.

Defence is the most demanding portfolio in government yet Marles is also Deputy Prime Minister. During Albanese’s frequent absences, he’s Acting PM. Marles is himself an enthusiastic and frequent traveller on defence diplomacy. He’s often not across the detail of defence equipment and is ineffective in leading the department.

The huge portfolio of Defence Industry, responsible for billions upon billions of dollars, is with Conroy. He’s a junior minister, lacking cabinet status, but also lacking a cabinet minister’s staff allocation. Worse, he simultaneously has a second portfolio, so Defence Industry is notionally led by a half-time junior minister with no staff.

In some ways Defence loves this lack of ministerial supervision. But it’s an unmitigated disaster for the nation.
Greg Sheridan.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/this-is-a-death-sentence-for-our-def...



A bipartisan, cultural collapse in Australia, which no longer seems to take its own defence seriously.



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Re: Defence
Reply #43 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 4:17pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 4:08pm:
"Real capability", Soren.  Learn to read.  Sheesssh.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



Look, you stupid bastard, look, don't just roll your unfocused eyes and tut tut inanely.


This is a death sentence for our defence capabilities


Frank wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 8:02am:
It’s a tragedy for a man guilty of nothing worse than being a brave dissident. It’s also a stark reminder of the nature of the government that is, second only to the United States, the biggest military power on Earth, and that seeks complete dominance of our region.

This underlines the extreme irresponsibility of the Albanese government’s failure to provide for any enhanced Australian defence capability over the next decade.
Even our existing capabilities are degrading and disappearing.
It’s a secondary scandal that the nation is not more agitated about this. It indicates a bipartisan, cultural collapse in Australia, which no longer seems to take its own defence seriously.
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Re: Defence
Reply #44 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 4:37pm
 
Oh, dearie, dearie, me, you are a worry-wart, Soren.  We presently have no enemies so who are we supposedly defending against?  China is a distant worry, way off there, some 5000 kilometres away.  Who else is a danger?  Asylum seekers?  Terrorists?  Anyone?  Americans perhaps?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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« Last Edit: Feb 7th, 2024 at 5:02pm by Brian Ross »  

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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