Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 21^st, 2024 at 11:37am:



Ah --yes; but here's the thing: you claim the 'victimhood industry' is a real thing, while ignoring the real basis of the disadvantage which gives rise to your  misnamed  'victim industry',

Which is really a 'disadvantage industry'; regardless of theories of causation, the disadvantage is real.

And you say it's up to the individual to escape disadvantage, though you appear to admit (below)  personal responsibility isn't the only factor involved in escaping disadvantage - no doubt because you see disadvantage as resulting from (subjective) 'victimhood'.      

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see above?

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oh..so I'm NOT ignorant (parrot or otherwise). Thanks. 

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because macroeconomic settings (implemented by government), are as important as personal responsibility for individuals' outcomes. 

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Ah  - so "choices" , rather than responsibility...

Yes, I see the difference: but the external environment (and maybe genetics)  influences those choices in different ways for different individuals, as numerous studies attest. 

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It's funny you should claim that - recall my comment above; you see disadvantage as resulting from (subjective) 'victimhood' rather than external circumstances beyond the choices of individuals (but no-one chooses economic recessions).      

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refuted above, you can't change environments in a global  recession, or tight job market.   

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Good advice, if inadequate; government also has a responsibility to reduce the incidence of dysfunction in families and communities. 


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Again, only half the story; dysfunctioal families don't exist in isolation from the community around them.

Social workers in the Alice are trying to create circumstances in which individuals in dysfunctional families will make better personal choices, but the government ought also be implemeting policies to reduce the incidence of dysfunction in the first place.

Step 1. replace welfare dependency with paid work.

Step 2. Don't argue over which comes first - the chicken  (responsibility for welfare dependency) or the egg (a job provided by government acting as employer of last resort).
 
Just do it.

Still with the victimhood industry line...

Let's not be too hasty - you ARE all of those....

Not a DIRECT cause - as in 'responsible for' - the essence is what people choose to do with their situation .. not hard, you know.

Of course many things influence those decisions - but that does not make those things 'responsible' for the individual being at that crossroads....  it isn't always because 'society did it to them' - the essence of the victimhood industry....

GD: "you see disadvantage as resulting from (subjective) 'victimhood' rather than external circumstances beyond the choices of individuals (but no-one chooses economic recessions)". 

Graps: No - I do not - I see the two as separate issues.... one may not choose all of one' environment - but one chooses to be or to remain a victim by claiming everything wrong is always due to some source out of their control - including 'genetics'.  It's called 'cop-out'.

Doesn't mean the individual has to remain mired in the mud they are in... or become an alcoholic or whatever, or play the perpetual victim.

Well - set them to it - not that they're doing much of a job of it with groups such as Alice Springs Abos.... a little bit of talk... it's a sheila thing... hold a chat-fest and do nothing....

... and this 'work' - how does it meaningfully contribute to the economy and even the outlook of those invovled... a. by creating more divide .... internal and external ... now that's brilliant ....

I don't argue over responsibility for 'welfare dependency'.
- I simply state facts which do not apply to all equally - if the cap fits... wear it. 

Graps, you need to re-format  #135 (your reply to my #134 (if you want a debate).

Meantime I will see if I can extrictate some of your argument, despite the faulty format in #135. 

“Poor old unelected Guterres is upset that there are countries and citizens out there who value their own independence and political agency and there are companies out there who still believe that their job is to make a profit,” Mr Dean said.

“Translated from the original communist manifesto, what Guterres basically is saying ‘let's scrap capitalism and democracy’ that have been so effective, and impose socialist authoritarianism, which has been a disaster, which is built on surveillance and compliance and authoritarianism in the name of fighting climate change and mysterious pandemics."