Australian Politics Forum - Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #60 - Jan 14^th, 2024 at 11:59am

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 14^th, 2024 at 11:51am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 14^th, 2024 at 11:34am:

Well - we can all see how well that worked...

Indeed; after some mal-administration of 'collectivized farming' (which Marx hadn't considered), strong CCP management of the 'free market' along with private ownership introduced after reforms in 1980, resulted in the fastest reduction of poverty in history.

After 50 million deaths and endless strife

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Now - about Mt Warning... it seems the majority want it re-opened..... let's assume, out of our good graces, that the NSW Opposition is planning to announce such a thing prior to the next election.... that's the entire Northern Rivers sewn up......

Not if cost of living issues still engage the majority.

Politics of distraction ... freediver will get them to the truth ... take back the asylum one room at a time - starting with Mt Warning... no good running around like headless chooks herded every which way by the self-interested.... as occurred in China for the benefit of the 'better' class as self-identified, for their billions.... personal sovereignty, innit?

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Frank

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #61 - Jan 14^th, 2024 at 12:07pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 14^th, 2024 at 11:31am:

Frank wrote on Jan 14^th, 2024 at 10:13am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 14^th, 2024 at 9:56am:

freediver wrote on Jan 13^th, 2024 at 1:17pm:

Quote:

The fools who equate democracy with good governance

Is the CCP internally democratic?

Yes, with decisons made by consensus rather than election.

The CCP has its stated goal of common prosperity, as opposed to the goal of individual "freedom".

But the problem with Western democracy is its illusion of individual freedom which is why eg, lack of housing and above-poverty jobs persists despite elections.

And the basis of that illusion is Western natural individual rights' ideology which itself is delusional; only individual desires exist, not "rights".

As I said to Frank, I'm arguing for the prosperity of the collective, as opposed to his back to front proposition that I was being directed by the collective.

Who came up with the common prosperity idea?

Interestingly it gets a mention in the 18th century Preamble to the US constitution: "....to promote the general welfare...." (ie not just the rich).

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On what authority did all those individuals in the CCP ( and there are millions of individuals in the CCP) gave up their own conscience and ability to reason in favour of consensus?

On the authority of the Law written into the Constitution after the victory of the "Marxist" revolution, in 1949.

So Marxists limit conscience and the ability to reason. Ta.

Also, the Common-wealth is bad because free citizens willingly come together, reason together, argue and compromise and retaint their freedom of conscience and ability to reason. All bad.

Marxist dictatorship is good because it limits conscience, alibility to reason, to argue and freely come together. The Supreme Leadership knows best because ... er.... it's Marxism.

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« Last Edit: Jan 14^th, 2024 at 3:50pm by Frank »

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 47423 Gender:	Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024 Reply #62 - Jan 14^th, 2024 at 1:09pm Mt Warning should be Mined. It's in the way of a good view.
Back to top	AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY. IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024 Reply #63 - Jan 14^th, 2024 at 2:34pm Quote: Indeed; after some mal-administration of 'collectivized farming' Is that a reference to the 50 million people the CCP starved to death with their lies and incompetence?
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024 Reply #64 - Jan 14^th, 2024 at 2:35pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 14^th, 2024 at 9:56am: freediver wrote on Jan 13^th, 2024 at 1:17pm: Quote: The fools who equate democracy with good governance Is the CCP internally democratic? Yes, with decisons made by consensus rather than election. What do you mean by consensus?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #65 - Jan 14^th, 2024 at 5:26pm

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2024 at 2:35pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 14^th, 2024 at 9:56am:

freediver wrote on Jan 13^th, 2024 at 1:17pm:

Quote:

The fools who equate democracy with good governance

Is the CCP internally democratic?

Yes, with decisons made by consensus rather than election.

What do you mean by consensus?

Based on grass-roots democracy', with officials chosen by general agreement at the local level and then on up to the national level, rather than by election - like candidates (standing for a particular party) are chosen for particular seats by party machines here, not by the public.

But will you admit "natural individual rights" don't exist, only (self-interested) individuals' desires exist?

To recap:

Don't walk into a crocodile infested river, your "rights" will turn out to be delusional.

And don't confront an armed Jew illegal settler, your "rights" will be trumped, at best, by a "Land Promise" from God.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #66 - Jan 14^th, 2024 at 5:54pm

Frank wrote on Jan 14^th, 2024 at 12:07pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 14^th, 2024 at 11:31am:

Frank wrote on Jan 14^th, 2024 at 10:13am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 14^th, 2024 at 9:56am:

freediver wrote on Jan 13^th, 2024 at 1:17pm:

Quote:

The fools who equate democracy with good governance

Is the CCP internally democratic?

Yes, with decisons made by consensus rather than election.

The CCP has its stated goal of common prosperity, as opposed to the goal of individual "freedom".

But the problem with Western democracy is its illusion of individual freedom which is why eg, lack of housing and above-poverty jobs persists despite elections.

And the basis of that illusion is Western natural individual rights' ideology which itself is delusional; only individual desires exist, not "rights".

As I said to Frank, I'm arguing for the prosperity of the collective, as opposed to his back to front proposition that I was being directed by the collective.

Who came up with the common prosperity idea?

Interestingly it gets a mention in the 18th century Preamble to the US constitution: "....to promote the general welfare...." (ie not just the rich).

Quote:

On what authority did all those individuals in the CCP ( and there are millions of individuals in the CCP) gave up their own conscience and ability to reason in favour of consensus?

On the authority of the Law written into the Constitution after the victory of the "Marxist" revolution, in 1949.

So Marxists limit conscience and the ability to reason. Ta.

Wrong analysis, as to be expected from a deluded "freedom values" ideologue.

We both agree (so you claim) on the need for government - which will of necessity limit individual freedom.

Marxists merely agree that implementation of collective well-being is a higher manifestation of individual "conscience" than well-being based on self- interest of individuals alone.

So no limit on individual conscience, because conscience demands the well being of the collective - see the UN"Universal"DHR.

Quote:

Also, the Common-wealth is bad because free citizens willingly come together, reason together, argue and compromise and retaint their freedom of conscience and ability to reason. All bad.

Refuted above; your premise was wrong hence also your conclusion, conscience/"fairness" demands universal wellbeing.

Quote:

Marxist dictatorship is good because it limits conscience, alibility to reason, to argue and freely come together. The Supreme Leadership knows best because ... er.... it's Marxism.

See above: past dictatorships are not a constraint for present conscience seeking universal well-being.

....Which Marx desired: "workers of the world, unite", but Marx wasn't aware of the money delusion (ie all money - public and private - based on debt) crippling the world in our time.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 83822 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024 Reply #67 - Jan 14^th, 2024 at 6:02pm Then why give 'em all a job under that depraved approach to economics? Surely the long term better good would be attained by NOT giving them jobs.... keeping the issue alive... you know... Twelve Years A Slave To The White Man's Market!
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #68 - Jan 14^th, 2024 at 6:25pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 14^th, 2024 at 11:59am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 14^th, 2024 at 11:51am:

[quote author=The_Grappler link=1704186556/58#58 date=1705196040]Well - we can all see how well that worked...

Indeed; after some mal-administration of 'collectivized farming' (which Marx hadn't considered), strong CCP management of the 'free market' along with private ownership introduced after reforms in 1980, resulted in the fastest reduction of poverty in history.

After 50 million deaths and endless strife

That's what I said, did you miss it?

Marx didn't outline policies to eradicate poverty in a subsistence pre-industrial society like China in the early 20th century, so the CCP (following "Marxist" collectivism) was bound to mismanage 'collectivization' of agriculture, by ignoring the role of self-interest in incentive to work.

Quote:

Politics of distraction ...

No; cost of living issues are not a "distraction" - unless you are a comfortable, self-interested conservative.

Quote:

freediver will get them to the truth ...

Unfortunately, FD's economic theories are responsible for raising the current cost of living crisis to the status of a majority issue; Mt Warning won't rate in the next election, as Albo's policies are seeing voters desert him in droves.

Quote:

take back the asylum one room at a time - starting with Mt Warning...

Well...the piecemeal approach - ok...

Quote:

no good running around like headless chooks herded every which way by the self-interested....

"self interested" herding the self -interested - sad.

Quote:

as occurred in China for the benefit of the 'better' class as self-identified, for their billions.... personal sovereignty, innit?

No; the desire for collective well-being is not equivalent to "for the benefit of the 'better' class as self-identified".

Can you spot the difference?

Hint : a socialist Constitution is concerned with/strives for achieving the former, not the latter.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #69 - Jan 14^th, 2024 at 6:37pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 14^th, 2024 at 6:02pm:

Then why give 'em all a job under that depraved approach to economics?

??

Why? To end the present depraved "welfare" dependency system.

Quote:

Surely the long term better good would be attained by NOT giving them jobs.... keeping the issue alive... you know...

No, welfare dependency already keeps the depraved economic system alive.

Quote:

Twelve Years A Slave To The White Man's Market!

Enforced poverty-level welfare dependency (caused by involuntary unemployment) is another form of slavery.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 83822 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024 Reply #70 - Jan 14^th, 2024 at 10:35pm Cut to the chase - so swapping one form of slavery for another as part of the same depraved structure is OK with you? No change to the structure - just a change in the form of slavery - from dat cotton fiel' into dat big house!!
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #71 - Jan 15^th, 2024 at 8:42am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 14^th, 2024 at 10:35pm:

Cut to the chase

Great, let's see if graps can sensibly "cut to the chase"....

Quote:

- so swapping one form of slavery for another as part of the same depraved structure is OK with you?

??

Both institutionalized welfare, and joblessness, are part of the same depraved structure (in current neoclassical economic orthodoxy), neither of them are OK with me.

Still waiting to "cut to the chase"...

Quote:

No change to the structure - just a change in the form of slavery - from dat cotton fiel' into dat big house!!

On the contrary, a revolutionary change in structure, eradicating BOTH joblessness and welfare dependency.

See how your "everyone who wants a job can get a job (and a house)" delusion, cripples your capacity for analysis?

The fool Bullock wants to increase joblessness by lifting interest rates (as required by neoclassical economics, to reduce inflation); and as for houses, there simply aren't enough in Oz, the result of government abandoning public housing since the eighties, and letting the private sector rip with its greed -based houses as investment policy.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 83822 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024 Reply #72 - Jan 15^th, 2024 at 8:47am .
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #73 - Jan 15^th, 2024 at 8:56am

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 15^th, 2024 at 8:42am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 14^th, 2024 at 10:35pm:

Cut to the chase

Great, let's see if graps can sensibly "cut to the chase"....

Quote:

- so swapping one form of slavery for another as part of the same depraved structure is OK with you?

??

Both institutionalized welfare, and joblessness, are part of the same depraved structure (in current neoclassical economic orthodoxy), neither of them are OK with me.

Still waiting to "cut to the chase"...

Quote:

No change to the structure - just a change in the form of slavery - from dat cotton fiel' into dat big house!!

On the contrary, a revolutionary change in structure, eradicating BOTH joblessness and welfare dependency.

See how your "everyone who wants a job can get a job (and a house)" delusion, cripples your capacity for analysis?

The fool Bullock wants to increase joblessness by lifting interest rates (as required by neoclassical economics, to reduce inflation); and as for houses, there simply aren't enough in Oz, the result of government abandoning public housing since the eighties, and letting the private sector rip with its greed -based houses as investment policy.

I see you suffer from the same mental disease as the 'transgender' community in America - assuming that anyone with a different view must perforce be part of some group that is primarily based around a few basic concepts, such as religion, right wing-ness, conservatism... Republicanism... and that all are therefore the same.

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about, and clearly you've never read one thing I've posted here.

Still waiting for you to cut to the chase and stop chasing ghosts around.....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #74 - Jan 15^th, 2024 at 9:19am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 15^th, 2024 at 8:56am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 15^th, 2024 at 8:42am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 14^th, 2024 at 10:35pm:

Cut to the chase

Great, let's see if graps can sensibly "cut to the chase"....

Quote:

- so swapping one form of slavery for another as part of the same depraved structure is OK with you?

??

Both institutionalized welfare, and joblessness, are part of the same depraved structure (in current neoclassical economic orthodoxy), neither of them are OK with me.

Still waiting to "cut to the chase"...

Quote:

No change to the structure - just a change in the form of slavery - from dat cotton fiel' into dat big house!!

On the contrary, a revolutionary change in structure, eradicating BOTH joblessness and welfare dependency.

See how your "everyone who wants a job can get a job (and a house)" delusion, cripples your capacity for analysis?

The fool Bullock wants to increase joblessness by lifting interest rates (as required by neoclassical economics, to reduce inflation); and as for houses, there simply aren't enough in Oz, the result of government abandoning public housing since the eighties, and letting the private sector rip with its greed -based houses as investment policy.

I see you suffer from the same mental disease as the 'transgender' community in America

O no, graps favourite topic , trannies...

Quote:

- assuming that anyone with a different view must perforce be part of some group that is primarily based around a few basic concepts, such as religion, right wing-ness, conservatism... Republicanism... and that all are therefore the same.

Our discussion detoured to joblessness and homelessness (and is in the wrong thread); nevertheless, these two subjects ARE based in the field of economics.

That you can no longer debate homelessless and joblessness, but need to divert to a weird accusation of my analysis being "based around a few basic concepts" (what's religion, trannies, etc got to do with it..) is indicative of your lack a knowledge on these topics.

[See how you abandoned debate in the 'cultural Marxism' thread: no reply to my examining of your inadequate reasoning in your last post in that thread].

Quote:

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about, and clearly you've never read one thing I've posted here.

More hiding the fact your capacity for analysis is crippled; rather than answering the post, you accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about. Classic fraud/low IQ. ANSWER BOTH POSTS.

Quote:

Still waiting for you to cut to the chase and stop chasing ghosts around.....

Still waiting for you to stop being a fraud (as explained above) - which you CAN do; low IQ is something you can't change, unfortunately.

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« Last Edit: Jan 15^th, 2024 at 9:25am by thegreatdivide »

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