Frank wrote on Jan 16
th, 2024 at 10:30am:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 16
th, 2024 at 10:22am:
[quote author=freediver link=1704186556/84#84 date=1705360667]Grappler is right. It is because you are incredibly boring and repetitive, and so far wrong I don't know where to start. Your strange views on what equality before the law means would be a good start.
1. Like I said, it means we are all equal -
in/before/under - the law.
Presumably you agree.
2. My objection is to the words " all men are created equal", which ignores the vast IN(UN)-equality regarding natural abilities.
google:
The phrase ("all men are created equal") often serves as the first, or one of the first, rights listed in enumerations of rights, as a framing for all subsequent rights.
Since Declarations of rights are often applied to all people, as natural human rights, the phrase emphasizes that all rights listed after it apply equally to every person.See the error?
They have changed 'all are created equal' into 'equality before the law' - so far so good; but applying "natural human rights" (which don't exist, only "rights" invented by men, in line with their
desires, exist), applying these as "rights" to all - ie to
individuals who have differing desires and abilities - is an oxymoron (or impossible)
Quote:Human are not horses or dogs or cattle.
(sigh - it would be nice if you actually addressed the points i made, as I will, in reply to you here; I'll show you how its done) ...
Of course humans aren't animals - though
in fact they are animals, just much more aware, and able to reason and resist instinct, than the "animals".
Quote:There is such a thing as being human and therefore such a thing as human dignity.
Of course: humans have "conscience' and a sense of
justice/fairness, enabling behaviours beyond that directed merely by survival/competitve instincts.
Quote:That is the basis of 'all men created equal'. there is equal human dignity at birth.
er...."the sins of the father are visited unto the following generations"; and FAS - resulting from dysfunctional social/econmic circumstances - incapacitates/cripples the infant even before it's born.
Quote:Or as the source of this idea put it, "here is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Yes, all
equal before the law, but certainly not equal in abilities, genes, and social circumstances.
Quote:The longer version:
The Declaration of Independence made a bold assertion about human nature and natural rights. The central claim that “all men are created equal” had profound implications for the American regime of liberty. The “self-evident truth” of human equality meant that humans had equal natural rights, equally gave their consent to create a republican government, had equal dignity, and were equal under the law.
Which I refuted in my post; the "bold assertion" re natural "rights" is based on
confusing desires with "rights", and the "self-evident truth" re human equality ignores the natural inequality of individuals' abilities and proclivities, with profound consequences for individual outcomes.
Quote:Throughout history, most societies were either monarchies, aristocracies, or despotisms. In those societies, leaders and elite social classes (or those of a certain ethnicity or religion) had certain rights and privileges that common people did not have. These societies were characterized by inequality.
Bloody hell, no kidding...
So men have been searching for a basis of Law, forever.
And still, 10 men have more wealth than half the world's population....and Oz can't house all its citizens.
Quote:The Enlightenment and ideas of John Locke significantly influenced the founders’ belief that all humans were created equal and had equal natural rights.
Now you are just repeating ideas whose errors I have already exposed; you need to show why my analysis of those errors is wrong.
Note: the Enlightenment also produced Thomas Paine:
"The world is my country, all men are my brethren, and to do good is my religion" A truely enlightened individual.
Quote:" The Declaration stated, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” The nature of the political regime was then shaped by this idea of natural human equality.
Again, influenced by Locke, the Declaration stated that all were equally free and independent to give their consent to create a free, representative government. The Declaration stated, “That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.” This was the basis of social contract or social compact theory. It created an equal citizenry and self-governance in a republic.
Like I said, mere repetition of erroneous ideas - erroneous as reasoned by me - won't save you, you have show where my reasoning is wrong.
Note to Frank - see, that's how it's done, ie reply point by point, to defend your case.
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