Australian Politics Forum - Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #90 - Jan 16^th, 2024 at 8:46pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 16^th, 2024 at 5:24pm:

As for "dignity", neither the physically ravaged alcoholic mother or her FAS-crippled baby is a manifestation of 'human dignity', despite both having equality before the law

A fat lot of good the said 'equality before the law' achieves for mother and baby.

And why did mother and child end up in this catastrophic circumstance, despite "equality before the law"?

Personal choice.... a fat lot of good extra treatment with fierce advertising campaigns and medical advice at clinics did... when you choose the Dark Side, Flake - you are on your own.... and you just can't help yourself.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 83822 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024 Reply #91 - Jan 16^th, 2024 at 8:48pm * Geostationary Stealth Glitch Commobs Satellite i . Low Altitude High Speed Reconnaissance Glitch - potential decaying orbit This is a test.... this is a test ....
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #92 - Jan 17^th, 2024 at 11:10am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 16^th, 2024 at 8:46pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 16^th, 2024 at 5:24pm:

As for "dignity", neither the physically ravaged alcoholic mother or her FAS-crippled baby is a manifestation of 'human dignity', despite both having equality before the law

A fat lot of good the said 'equality before the law' achieves for mother and baby.

And why did mother and child end up in this catastrophic circumstance, despite "equality before the law"?

Personal choice.... a fat lot of good extra treatment with fierce advertising campaigns and medical advice at clinics did... when you choose the Dark Side, Flake - you are on your own.... and you just can't help yourself.

No-one "chooses" to become an alcoholic:

Causes of alcoholism

https://toolkit.lifeline.org.au/topics/substance-misuse/causes-of-substance-misu...

Your current circumstances

Escaping uncertain, painful, or difficult circumstances in your life can be another reason for misusing substances.

These circumstances might include:

1.Financial strains or pressure
2.Homelessness or housing insecurity
3.Stress at work, school or at home
4.Losing your job, or struggling to find work
5.Big life changes like the end of a relationship, moving out of home, finishing school, or retiring.
......

Note: the heading 'Your current circumstances" is only one of several categories considerd in the article; together they expose your assertion of "personal responsibility" to be an expression of willful ignorance.

In fact your ideology is a vicious 'survival of the fittest' ideology based on the Classical Liberal 'natural individual rights' delusion, and its bastard sibling 'equality before the (delusion-based) law.

geez, tackling you, FD and Frank is like herding cats.

No wonder our world is in such a bad state.

What we need is good law which ameliorates/ eradicates the causes of the circumstances itemized above.

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Frank

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #93 - Jan 17^th, 2024 at 11:17am

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 17^th, 2024 at 11:10am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 16^th, 2024 at 8:46pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 16^th, 2024 at 5:24pm:

As for "dignity", neither the physically ravaged alcoholic mother or her FAS-crippled baby is a manifestation of 'human dignity', despite both having equality before the law

A fat lot of good the said 'equality before the law' achieves for mother and baby.

And why did mother and child end up in this catastrophic circumstance, despite "equality before the law"?

Personal choice.... a fat lot of good extra treatment with fierce advertising campaigns and medical advice at clinics did... when you choose the Dark Side, Flake - you are on your own.... and you just can't help yourself.

No-one "chooses" to become an alcoholic:

Causes of alcoholism

https://toolkit.lifeline.org.au/topics/substance-misuse/causes-of-substance-misu...

Your current circumstances

Escaping uncertain, painful, or difficult circumstances in your life can be another reason for misusing substances.

These circumstances might include:

1.Financial strains or pressure
2.Homelessness or housing insecurity
3.Stress at work, school or at home
4.Losing your job, or struggling to find work
5.Big life changes like the end of a relationship, moving out of home, finishing school, or retiring.
......

Note: the heading 'Your current circumstances" is only one of several categories considerd in the article; together they expose your assertion of "personal responsibility" to be an expression of willful ignorance.

In fact your ideology is a vicious 'survival of the fittest' ideology based on the Classical Liberal 'natural individual rights' delusion, and its bastard sibling 'equality before the (delusion-based) law.

geez, tackling you, FD and Frank is like herding cats.

No wonder our world is in such a bad state.

What we need is good law which ameliorates/ eradicates the causes of the circumstances itemized above.

Why is it, then, that not everyone, not even most people, in circumstances 1-5 'misuse' alcohol and become alcoholic?

Please explain.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #94 - Jan 17^th, 2024 at 11:22am

Frank wrote on Jan 17^th, 2024 at 11:17am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 17^th, 2024 at 11:10am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 16^th, 2024 at 8:46pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 16^th, 2024 at 5:24pm:

As for "dignity", neither the physically ravaged alcoholic mother or her FAS-crippled baby is a manifestation of 'human dignity', despite both having equality before the law

A fat lot of good the said 'equality before the law' achieves for mother and baby.

And why did mother and child end up in this catastrophic circumstance, despite "equality before the law"?

Personal choice.... a fat lot of good extra treatment with fierce advertising campaigns and medical advice at clinics did... when you choose the Dark Side, Flake - you are on your own.... and you just can't help yourself.

No-one "chooses" to become an alcoholic:

Causes of alcoholism

https://toolkit.lifeline.org.au/topics/substance-misuse/causes-of-substance-misu...

Your current circumstances

Escaping uncertain, painful, or difficult circumstances in your life can be another reason for misusing substances.

These circumstances might include:

1.Financial strains or pressure
2.Homelessness or housing insecurity
3.Stress at work, school or at home
4.Losing your job, or struggling to find work
5.Big life changes like the end of a relationship, moving out of home, finishing school, or retiring.
......

Note: the heading 'Your current circumstances" is only one of several categories considerd in the article; together they expose your assertion of "personal responsibility" to be an expression of willful ignorance.

In fact your ideology is a vicious 'survival of the fittest' ideology based on the Classical Liberal 'natural individual rights' delusion, and its bastard sibling 'equality before the (delusion-based) law.

geez, tackling you, FD and Frank is like herding cats.

No wonder our world is in such a bad state.

What we need is good law which ameliorates/ eradicates the causes of the circumstances itemized above.

Why is it, then, that not everyone, not even most people, in circumstances 1-5 'misuse' alcohol and become alcoholic?

Please explain.

Good question, shows you are capable of learning, (and there is hope for the world....):

Among "the other catgories" I mentioned is an examination of the role of genetics in substance abuse.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #95 - Jan 17^th, 2024 at 11:29am

Of course people choose to become alcoholics - nobody holds a gun at their heads.

Nobody is responsible for that woman's choice to drink when pregnant than herself...... none of us has any responsibility there and she is allowed - yea - even more - we have no RIGHT to interfere with her choices.

What IS the matter with you? You're like herding cats.... once only - just because your 'current circumstances' might be rough, it is still your choice to drink your way through those... you are deliberately misreading the term 'causes' - these circumstances don't CAUSE anyone to drink like some overbearing compulsion - they CHOOSE to drink to attempt to vercome those.

Now let's hear another of your bombardment with snowflakes 'refutations' ....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Frank

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #96 - Jan 17^th, 2024 at 11:47am

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 17^th, 2024 at 11:22am:

Frank wrote on Jan 17^th, 2024 at 11:17am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 17^th, 2024 at 11:10am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 16^th, 2024 at 8:46pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 16^th, 2024 at 5:24pm:

As for "dignity", neither the physically ravaged alcoholic mother or her FAS-crippled baby is a manifestation of 'human dignity', despite both having equality before the law

A fat lot of good the said 'equality before the law' achieves for mother and baby.

And why did mother and child end up in this catastrophic circumstance, despite "equality before the law"?

Personal choice.... a fat lot of good extra treatment with fierce advertising campaigns and medical advice at clinics did... when you choose the Dark Side, Flake - you are on your own.... and you just can't help yourself.

No-one "chooses" to become an alcoholic:

Causes of alcoholism

https://toolkit.lifeline.org.au/topics/substance-misuse/causes-of-substance-misu...

Your current circumstances

Escaping uncertain, painful, or difficult circumstances in your life can be another reason for misusing substances.

These circumstances might include:

1.Financial strains or pressure
2.Homelessness or housing insecurity
3.Stress at work, school or at home
4.Losing your job, or struggling to find work
5.Big life changes like the end of a relationship, moving out of home, finishing school, or retiring.
......

Note: the heading 'Your current circumstances" is only one of several categories considerd in the article; together they expose your assertion of "personal responsibility" to be an expression of willful ignorance.

In fact your ideology is a vicious 'survival of the fittest' ideology based on the Classical Liberal 'natural individual rights' delusion, and its bastard sibling 'equality before the (delusion-based) law.

geez, tackling you, FD and Frank is like herding cats.

No wonder our world is in such a bad state.

What we need is good law which ameliorates/ eradicates the causes of the circumstances itemized above.

Why is it, then, that not everyone, not even most people, in circumstances 1-5 'misuse' alcohol and become alcoholic?

Please explain.

Good question, shows you are capable of learning, (and there is hope for the world....):

Among "the other catgories" I mentioned is an examination of the role of genetics in substance abuse.

Only Marxist parrots are free, conscious and have a capacity for reasoning - everyone else is a victim of capitalism and their genes.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #97 - Jan 17^th, 2024 at 12:08pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 17^th, 2024 at 11:29am:

Of course people choose to become alcoholics - nobody holds a gun at their heads.

??

in fact many people suffering PTSD - eg as a result of having a "gun held at their head" - have become alcoholics. Even many 'tough' guys have suffered that outcome.

Your first point demolished.

Quote:

Nobody is responsible for that woman's choice to drink when pregnant than herself......

Wrong; entrenched socio-economic disadvantage (responsible for some of the circumstances listed in the article) is the entire community's responsibility, and therefore a task of government to ameliorate.

"No man is an island".

Quote:

none of us has any responsibility there

More GIGO from you; the community also has responsibility, as noted above.

Quote:

and she is allowed - yea - even more - we have no RIGHT to interfere with her choices.

You have the floor, please explain what "right" she has to destroy herself (and her unborn child); as to the community's desire (and responsibility) to prevent harm, surely that is a legitimate desire?

Quote:

What IS the matter with you? You're like herding cats....

Poor diddums - that was my put down......

Quote:

Now let's hear another of your bombardment with snowflakes 'refutations' ....

An assured refutation of your Classical Liberal "natural individual rights" delusion is not 'snowflakes'; it's demolishing the basis of your extreme 'survival of the fittest' ("personal responsibility alone") ideology.

The community also has a responsibility for its members' well-being; more than can be achieved by 50%+1 of self-interested individuals (reminds of newly-elected leaders promising to "serve ALL the people, not only those who voted for me"...a lie, of course).

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« Last Edit: Jan 17^th, 2024 at 12:58pm by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #98 - Jan 17^th, 2024 at 12:21pm

Frank wrote on Jan 17^th, 2024 at 11:47am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 17^th, 2024 at 11:22am:

Frank wrote on Jan 17^th, 2024 at 11:17am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 17^th, 2024 at 11:10am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 16^th, 2024 at 8:46pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 16^th, 2024 at 5:24pm:

As for "dignity", neither the physically ravaged alcoholic mother or her FAS-crippled baby is a manifestation of 'human dignity', despite both having equality before the law

A fat lot of good the said 'equality before the law' achieves for mother and baby.

And why did mother and child end up in this catastrophic circumstance, despite "equality before the law"?

Personal choice.... a fat lot of good extra treatment with fierce advertising campaigns and medical advice at clinics did... when you choose the Dark Side, Flake - you are on your own.... and you just can't help yourself.

No-one "chooses" to become an alcoholic:

Causes of alcoholism

https://toolkit.lifeline.org.au/topics/substance-misuse/causes-of-substance-misu...

Your current circumstances

Escaping uncertain, painful, or difficult circumstances in your life can be another reason for misusing substances.

These circumstances might include:

1.Financial strains or pressure
2.Homelessness or housing insecurity
3.Stress at work, school or at home
4.Losing your job, or struggling to find work
5.Big life changes like the end of a relationship, moving out of home, finishing school, or retiring.
......

Note: the heading 'Your current circumstances" is only one of several categories considerd in the article; together they expose your assertion of "personal responsibility" to be an expression of willful ignorance.

In fact your ideology is a vicious 'survival of the fittest' ideology based on the Classical Liberal 'natural individual rights' delusion, and its bastard sibling 'equality before the (delusion-based) law.

geez, tackling you, FD and Frank is like herding cats.

No wonder our world is in such a bad state.

What we need is good law which ameliorates/ eradicates the causes of the circumstances itemized above.

Why is it, then, that not everyone, not even most people, in circumstances 1-5 'misuse' alcohol and become alcoholic?

Please explain.

Good question, shows you are capable of learning, (and there is hope for the world....):

Among "the other catgories" I mentioned is an examination of the role of genetics in substance abuse.

Only Marxist parrots are free, conscious and have a capacity for reasoning - everyone else is a victim of capitalism and their genes.

SOME - eg the least competitve - will be "victims of capitalism", others of their genes.

I know you are going to be a slow learner, but listen up:

Those living in poverty are the victims of many causes, internal and external (causes examined in the article) , as well as the fault their own "choices" - confused with 'personal responsibility' by the 'survival of the fittest' enthusiast grappler.

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« Last Edit: Jan 17^th, 2024 at 12:26pm by thegreatdivide »

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Frank Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 44695 Gender:	Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024 Reply #99 - Jan 17^th, 2024 at 12:45pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 17^th, 2024 at 12:21pm: SOME - eg the least competitve - will be "victims of capitalism", others of their genes. Are YOU a victim of capitalism or of your genes?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #100 - Jan 17^th, 2024 at 12:56pm

Frank wrote on Jan 17^th, 2024 at 12:45pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 17^th, 2024 at 12:21pm:

SOME - eg the least competitve - will be "victims of capitalism", others of their genes.

Are YOU a victim of capitalism or of your genes?

No. I was lucky enough to have a job all my working life, and gave up grog and cigs early on, so not a victim of my genes.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #101 - Jan 17^th, 2024 at 1:24pm

So YOU chose to give up cigs and booze - but those you deem to be victims of society have deficient genes that compel them to the booze and baccie... it's not their fault and not their choice... or is this 'choice' thing more of a ... you know... 'class' thing ....sounds reasonable...

As usual - your entire argument is falsely based... you live the very life that you say others cannot due to their circumstances... blither, blither ...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #102 - Jan 17^th, 2024 at 1:26pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 17^th, 2024 at 12:08pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 17^th, 2024 at 11:29am:

Of course people choose to become alcoholics - nobody holds a gun at their heads.

??

in fact many people suffering PTSD - eg as a result of having a "gun held at their head" - have become alcoholics. Even many 'tough' guys have suffered that outcome.

Your first point demolished.

Quote:

Nobody is responsible for that woman's choice to drink when pregnant than herself......

Wrong; entrenched socio-economic disadvantage (responsible for some of the circumstances listed in the article) is the entire community's responsibility, and therefore a task of government to ameliorate.

"No man is an island".

Quote:

none of us has any responsibility there

More GIGO from you; the community also has responsibility, as noted above.

Quote:

and she is allowed - yea - even more - we have no RIGHT to interfere with her choices.

You have the floor, please explain what "right" she has to destroy herself (and her unborn child); as to the community's desire (and responsibility) to prevent harm, surely that is a legitimate desire?

Quote:

What IS the matter with you? You're like herding cats....

Poor diddums - that was my put down......

Quote:

Now let's hear another of your bombardment with snowflakes 'refutations' ....

An assured refutation of your Classical Liberal "natural individual rights" delusion is not 'snowflakes'; it's demolishing the basis of your extreme 'survival of the fittest' ("personal responsibility alone") ideology.

The community also has a responsibility for its members' well-being; more than can be achieved by 50%+1 of self-interested individuals (reminds of newly-elected leaders promising to "serve ALL the people, not only those who voted for me"...a lie, of course).

Nonsense as usual....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #103 - Jan 17^th, 2024 at 1:59pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 17^th, 2024 at 1:24pm:

So YOU chose to give up cigs and booze - but those you deem to be victims of society have deficient genes that compel them to the booze and baccie...

Poor comprehension on your part:

1. Yes, I chose to give up cigs and booze, for various reasons (cost, health, and ....I didn't have to struggle with gene-based addiction - identified as a cause of alcoholism in the article....).

2. Victims of society refers to victims of entrenched social and economic disadvantage which wasn't my family's experience.

3. Genes may or may not play a part in entrapment in entrenched poverty, it depends on the individual's genes

Quote:

"it's not their fault and not their choice"... or is this 'choice' thing more of a ... you know... 'class' thing ....sounds reasonable...

indeed: "class" is also a factor in entrenched disadvantage, obviously.

Quote:

As usual - your entire argument is falsely based...

"falsely based": you mean..my rejection of your Classical Liberal 'natural individual rights' delusion?

The problem is you have already decided entrenched disadvantage doesn't exist, because it's the fault of it's victims, and therefore not due to any external social/economic factors.

So your ability to consider the causes of entrenched poverty is grossly inadequate, as explained in previous posts (due to your delusional Classical Liberal 'natural individual rights' ideology)

Quote:

you live the very life that you say others cannot due to their circumstances... blither, blither ...

Did you miss it? Some are un-underemployed involuntarily, as will be graphicallly shown in the next recession (since you apparently can't read history).

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Mt Warning Protest Jan 26, 2024
Reply #104 - Jan 17^th, 2024 at 2:11pm

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zero comprehension on your part zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz just a heap of ideological nonsense zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Without getting into your endless pointless arguments - has to be a calculated move on your part to annoy people - so somebody 'had a gun pointed at them' years ago - that is still not the CAUSE of their resorting to alcohol etc - it may be a part reason they chose to go that way, but the choice was still theirs.

I've had guns pointed at me - was at the Hilton bombing within minutes - none of that 'drove' me to drinking etc... personal issues later did... but when necessary I chose to give it up....

It's ALL about choices - not about 'victimhood' = victimhood industry....

Ooooh - I've had a hard life, man...

You oughta see it from my side!

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« Last Edit: Jan 17^th, 2024 at 2:17pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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