Australian Politics Forum - Energy Sources Shape Up As An Election Battle

John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 73624 Gender:	Re: Energy Sources Shape Up As An Election Battle Reply #30 - Jun 27^th, 2024 at 8:00pm Fd doesn't care.
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Setanta Gold Member Offline \/ Peace man! Posts: 16234 Northern NSW Gender:	Re: Energy Sources Shape Up As An Election Battle Reply #31 - Jun 27^th, 2024 at 8:03pm Aww, come on, it's a step back in time, it should be heritage listed. You old fogeys should be applauding!
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JC Denton Gold Member Offline Posts: 5459 Gender:	Re: Energy Sources Shape Up As An Election Battle Reply #32 - Jun 27^th, 2024 at 9:01pm John Smith wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 8:00pm: Fd doesn't care. why dont we just make a new forum and all migrate there then? can no one agree on who gets to be the admin? i mean it's understandable there's a lot of power hungry freaks here
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John Smith

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Re: Energy Sources Shape Up As An Election Battle
Reply #33 - Jun 27^th, 2024 at 9:43pm

JC Denton wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 9:01pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 8:00pm:

Fd doesn't care.

why dont we just make a new forum and all migrate there then? can no one agree on who gets to be the admin? i mean it's understandable there's a lot of power hungry freaks here

You're always welcome to join Monk's forum. The software is far superior to here. The problem is to many nut cases on power trips that won't join just because it's Monk's.

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JC Denton

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Re: Energy Sources Shape Up As An Election Battle
Reply #34 - Jun 27^th, 2024 at 9:47pm

John Smith wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 9:43pm:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 9:01pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 8:00pm:

Fd doesn't care.

why dont we just make a new forum and all migrate there then? can no one agree on who gets to be the admin? i mean it's understandable there's a lot of power hungry freaks here

You're always welcome to join Monk's forum. The software is far superior to here. The problem is to many nut cases on power trips that won't join just because it's Monk's.

an alt site can only work if we get a total migration going, otherwise itll never be the same

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Energy Sources Shape Up As An Election Battle
Reply #35 - Jun 27^th, 2024 at 10:48pm

JC Denton wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 9:47pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 9:43pm:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 9:01pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 8:00pm:

Fd doesn't care.

why dont we just make a new forum and all migrate there then? can no one agree on who gets to be the admin? i mean it's understandable there's a lot of power hungry freaks here

You're always welcome to join Monk's forum. The software is far superior to here. The problem is to many nut cases on power trips that won't join just because it's Monk's.

an alt site can only work if we get a total migration going, otherwise itll never be the same

Mong tried to get people in this forum to join his forum only a few rusted on old leftists did.

Those who are members of Mongs forum spend more time posting here than over at his shithole

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Frank

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Re: Energy Sources Shape Up As An Election Battle
Reply #36 - Jun 28^th, 2024 at 9:10am

Setanta wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 6:52pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 6:39pm:

I click on your link and i get Grappler's post with the Oppenheimer still.

It leads me to the first post in Australian Politics Forum › General Discussion › General Board › high price tag for nuclear", perhaps that may help your angst and show the graph?

I clicked on your link. It took me to the 10th post on that thread

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1719178624/10#10

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freediver

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Re: Energy Sources Shape Up As An Election Battle
Reply #37 - Jun 28^th, 2024 at 9:54am

Setanta wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 6:17pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 11:46am:

Frank wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 11:38am:

freediver wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 10:26am:

AusGeoff wrote on Feb 26^th, 2024 at 4:37am:

Quote:

“We don’t have a nuclear industry in Australia, it will take years to get one up and running, years, decades".

Seriously Mr Bowen?

Australia's uranium has been mined since 1954, and our uranium
reserves are the world's largest, with 28% of the total.

Re Dutton's stance, it's ironic that Gough Whitlam's Labor party
was in favour of developing nuclear power generation in Australia
until the tree-huggers of the day kyboshed it. Sadly.

It might have been a good idea back then. But since then, nuclear has gone from the cheapest to the most expensive option. Does that makes sense to you?

What/who makes you think it went from cheapest to most expensive in 50 years? Apart from Chris Bowen.

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1719178624

The BoA part of that article where it states the following should be looked at:

Quote:

Bank of America (2023)[edit]
In 2023, Bank of America conducted a LCOE study in which it postulated that existing LCOE estimates for renewables do not account for fossil fuel or battery backup and therefore levelized full system cost of electricity (LFSCOE) would be a more reasonable metric to compare sources in terms of providing 24/7 consumer electricity.[87]

LCOE LFSCOE(Texas, US) LFSCOE(Germany, EU)

Nuclear 82 122 106
Wind    40 291 504
Solar    36 413 1548
Biomass 95 117 104
Coal 76         90 78
Gas 38         40 35

Nuclear dosn't look so bad taking more factors into consideration.

Edit: For those that think in terms 3 eyed fish etc and still support coal should read this.

Taking more factors into account?

Do you know how to store nuclear waste until it is no longer dangerous, and how much that would cost? Because no-one else seems to. They all seem happy to get the power today and let their grandchildren deal with the radioactive waste.

Frank wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 6:39pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 5:40pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 2:24pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 1:56pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 11:51am:

freediver wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 11:46am:

Frank wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 11:38am:

freediver wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 10:26am:

AusGeoff wrote on Feb 26^th, 2024 at 4:37am:

Quote:

“We don’t have a nuclear industry in Australia, it will take years to get one up and running, years, decades".

Seriously Mr Bowen?

Australia's uranium has been mined since 1954, and our uranium
reserves are the world's largest, with 28% of the total.

Re Dutton's stance, it's ironic that Gough Whitlam's Labor party
was in favour of developing nuclear power generation in Australia
until the tree-huggers of the day kyboshed it. Sadly.

It might have been a good idea back then. But since then, nuclear has gone from the cheapest to the most expensive option. Does that makes sense to you?

What/who makes you think it went from cheapest to most expensive in 50 years? Apart from Chris Bowen.

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1719178624

Ok, apart from Bowen and Grappler.

Do you not know how to read a graph?

There is no graph at that post, only a still from Oppenheimer.

Are you high? If so, the coalition needs you on their team.

Your site is ****ed, FD, a laggy, dungfired dinosaur of a board. I click on your link and i get Grappler's post with the Oppenheimer still.

It has been poined out to you dozens of times that your site is laggy, it doesn't display the latest post - that's why people post empties and flips to chivvie it along.

What have you done about it? Nuffin'. You ask me if I am high. Pull your finger out, pal, fix your antiquated, wood fired old site. You earn an income from us, meager as it is and diminishing by the day.

For FFFF's Sake.

Coming down hard eh?

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freediver

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Re: Energy Sources Shape Up As An Election Battle
Reply #38 - Jun 28^th, 2024 at 9:59am

Frank wrote on Jun 28^th, 2024 at 9:10am:

Setanta wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 6:52pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 6:39pm:

I click on your link and i get Grappler's post with the Oppenheimer still.

It leads me to the first post in Australian Politics Forum › General Discussion › General Board › high price tag for nuclear", perhaps that may help your angst and show the graph?

I clicked on your link. It took me to the 10th post on that thread

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1719178624/10#10

Does anyone else get this? If I hover over the link I posted it does not have the /10#10 bit in it.

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Jovial Monk

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Re: Energy Sources Shape Up As An Election Battle
Reply #39 - Jun 28^th, 2024 at 10:46am

JC Denton wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 7:56pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 7:37pm:

XenForo is good, is what my fine forum runs on.

Will be a big job but I would toss in a few bucks if that helps. We will need the patience of Job but definitely be worth it in the end.

it would be nice if we could have a search function that worked and post (up to 100 ) pages that go over the current amount so reading through any thread wasnt so frustrating

xenforo would rule

Indeed it would! Be worth paying a bit more and getting the extended search function. Be nice to be able to post more than 5000 words per post. With real forum software be no need for a dedicated server.

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JC Denton

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Re: Energy Sources Shape Up As An Election Battle
Reply #40 - Jun 28^th, 2024 at 12:00pm

Jovial Monk wrote on Jun 28^th, 2024 at 10:46am:

JC Denton wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 7:56pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Jun 27^th, 2024 at 7:37pm:

XenForo is good, is what my fine forum runs on.

Will be a big job but I would toss in a few bucks if that helps. We will need the patience of Job but definitely be worth it in the end.

it would be nice if we could have a search function that worked and post (up to 100 ) pages that go over the current amount so reading through any thread wasnt so frustrating

xenforo would rule

Indeed it would! Be worth paying a bit more and getting the extended search function. Be nice to be able to post more than 5000 words per post. With real forum software be no need for a dedicated server.

don't forget post reactions, increased avatar limits, the ability to embed tweets, the ability to more easily embed urls in text, etc. this place is a dinosaur.

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Frank

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Re: Energy Sources Shape Up As An Election Battle
Reply #41 - Jun 30^th, 2024 at 11:53am

Having a debate about energy costs is vital because if they continue to rise it will cripple industry and further beggar the poor. The starting point should be serious scrutiny of the cost of the renewables-dominant system the government favours and what it will do to the retail price of power.

Recall Labor’s pledge to cut power bills rested on the dubious claim that wholesale electricity prices would fall because when wind and solar generate it, the fuel is free.

This thesis was neatly summed up in the beginnings of an energy haiku penned by Climate Change and Energy Minister Chris Bowen.

“The sun and wind don’t send a bill.”

Alas, the retailer does, and prices keep going up.

Stephen Wilson, an Adjunct Professor in the School of Mechanical and Mining Engineering at the University of Queensland, has tackled this myth in a new report for the Institute of Public Affairs titled “The Ruinous Cost of Free Energy”.

He points out what all energy ministers ignore: that the cost of wholesale electricity is not set by the lowest cost of generation on the National Electricity Market. It is set by the highest. And the size of the bill for consumers and taxpayers does not rest on the wholesale price alone. Australians will pay for the total system cost.

But even the wholesale electricity price won’t fall across a year under the government’s plan, because the frequent troughs of weather-dependent generation must be covered by something and whatever that something is will be expensive.

Wilson notes the cheapest system is the one we inherit, engineered in the 20th century on a foundation of low-cost mine-mouth coal.

Gas and energy expert Saul Kavonic says price spikes and scarcity in energy will cause manufacturing to be “unsustainable”.

“It can provide bulk electricity at a wholesale cost level in round numbers of about $50 per megawatt-hour (MWh) or in other words 5c per kilowatt-hour (kWh).”

With the retirement of coal, and the rise of wind and solar, the balance has shifted to an era where gas dominates price setting, as it fires up to cover renewable generation troughs. Even if gas only “meets the last megawatt of demand, it sets the spot price for all generators operating at that moment across the entire market”.

“(If) an extra unit of gas for the marginal generator is about $10 per gigajoule (GJ), then the wholesale electricity price at that moment will be about $100/MWh, which is 10c/kWh.” So, double what we once paid and entirely a function of covering the limitations of variable renewable energy.

The truth of Wilson’s thesis played out in what happened to the wholesale price during the recent cold, still nights, but this is just a halfway house on the road to ever more expensive power. The next phase will be worse.

“If the system is to be operated only on wind, solar and hydro power, with energy shuffled in and out of large and small storage assets and devices, the generation cost averaged across the energy for the total interconnected system will approach $200/MWh (20c/kWh) or more,” the report says.

“The further the system moves away from the inherited generation system in the coal-based ‘$50 cost zone’ through the gas-based ‘$100 cost zone’ and towards the wind- and solar-based ‘$200 cost zone’, the more the actual outcomes for final consumers are likely to escalate to even higher price levels.”

Wilson concludes that the lowest cost system is the one we have, and the next-lowest cost system is one built on new baseload power plants, whether they be coal or nuclear. And the focus of this entire debate should be: How do you generate zero-emissions energy without a catastrophic fall in living standards?

No doubt Wilson’s thesis will be furiously contested. But time will out. The truth will be written in your electricity bill.
Chris Uhlmann

The Ruinous Cost of Free Energy:
https://ipa.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/IPA-Research-Report-The-Ruinous-Co...

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Frank

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Re: Energy Sources Shape Up As An Election Battle
Reply #42 - Jun 30^th, 2024 at 11:55am

Renewable energy is rising in the world’s primary energy mix, hitting 14.6 per cent, and the share of fossil fuels is falling.

But look closely and the two reports committed what was once seen as the cardinal sin of journalism, burying the lede.

The big story wasn’t hard to spot; it was in the first line of the Energy Institute’s media release.

“Record global energy consumption, with coal and oil pushing fossil fuels and their emissions to record levels,” it said.

Fossil fuel consumption in the world’s primary energy mix did fall, by 0.4 per cent, but it still accounts for 81.5 per cent of the stuff that makes the world work. Oil production increased by 1.8 million barrels a day to reach a new high of 96 million barrels a day in 2023.

Let’s stick with the zeitgeist and put the good news on coal first. In Europe and North America coal consumption “has been in constant decline over the past 10 years”. But then, this: “Global coal production reached its highest-ever level, beating the previous high set the year before.”

“Whilst China is by far the largest consumer of coal (it beat its own record set in 2022 and now accounts for 56 per cent of the world’s total consumption), in 2023 India exceeded the combined consumption of Europe and North America for the first time ever,” the report says.

The only thing that is changing with coal is where it is burnt, and not much of anything has changed with the world’s consumption of oil. It all nets out to an increase in carbon emissions, exactly the opposite of what the world says it wants to do.
Chris Uhlmann

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48804 At my desk.	Re: Energy Sources Shape Up As An Election Battle Reply #43 - Jun 30^th, 2024 at 4:27pm Quote: Having a debate about energy costs... Labor and the Greens implemented the cheapest, most economically rational way to reduce GHG emissions a decade ago. The coalition dumped it, and right now are trying to replace it with the most expensive option.
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Frank

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Re: Energy Sources Shape Up As An Election Battle
Reply #44 - Jul 2^nd, 2024 at 1:32pm

If Labor was truly against nuclear energy on principle, it would cancel any arrangements to purchase nuclear-powered submarines and it would dismantle the nuclear reactor at Lucas Heights in Sydney.

However, we know Labor has no principles other than doing the bidding of the union thugs who fund them.

This appears to be the ultimate reason behind Labor’s anti-nuclear scare campaign.

Labor provides billions of dollars of grants, subsidies and incentives to support renewable energy investments.

Between them and the Coalition, this has cost taxpayers $29 billion in the past 10 years.

Labor enforces regulations and mandates which enforce a guaranteed market for renewable energy.

Industry superannuation funds controlled by Labor’s union bosses invest heavily in these renewables projects, and why not?

It’s underwritten by taxpayers thanks to Labor, guaranteeing a lucrative return for these union-controlled super funds.

These lucrative returns are then used to support the Labor Party with large donations.

It was no coincidence that in December 2023, union-controlled industry super funds demanded even more “favourable investment conditions” underwritten by taxpayers for the transition to net zero.

These funds included CBUS, chaired by former Labor treasurer Wayne Swan, and AustralianSuper, with close ties to former Labor prime minister Paul Keating.

I’ll highlight a few more union affiliations among the current Labor cabinet:

• Bill Shorten and the AWU
• Tony Burke and the SDA in New South Wales
• Don Farrell and the SDA in South Australia
• Katy Gallagher and the CPSU
• Pat Conroy – the CFMEU and the AMWU
• Richard Marles and the ACTU

It’s insidious how much unions have infiltrated this Parliament, and how it compromises good government.

This is a scam paid for by the Australian taxpayer with subsidies, and by Australian consumers with their record high energy bills.

Labor and its union masters don’t want this corrupt gravy train derailed by nuclear energy.

That’s why they’ve come out swinging against it, while once again showing their absolute contempt for the intelligence of the Australian people.

Fortunately, Australians are smart enough not to fall for Labor’s pathetic scare campaign of three-eyed fish memes.

Australians understand that nuclear power is safely used at 450 sites around the world in 32 countries.

Australia is the only advanced economy in the world which doesn’t make use of this proven technology, despite having at least a quarter of the planet’s proven uranium reserves.

This important natural advantage to Australia is being squandered.

It makes absolutely no sense that Australia – one of the world’s most energy-rich countries – is facing energy shortages this winter and has some of the highest energy prices in the world.

That is, unless you follow the money trail.

Labor and the unions are orchestrating a massive scam on the Australian people, and the price of it will be our economy and our standard of living.

This scam and the destruction it is causing must be exposed and stopped.

Nuclear energy is a beginning, but uranium is just one of Australia’s natural advantages.

We also have abundant reserves of coal and natural gas.

All of these natural advantages should be utilised in an independent energy policy that prioritises affordability and reliability over climate change ideology.

The Prime Minister’s inability to stand up to unions has been exposed by thugs like John Setka.

The Prime Minister’s weakness has been further exposed by Senator Payman, who has escaped any serious sanction for crossing the floor against Labor policy last week.

Why are we allowing this union-Labor renewables scam to happen?

Is it to arrest climate change by reducing carbon dioxide emissions?

Because if it is, that’s not working.

Global emissions continue to rise, another indicator of the union-Labor renewables scam.

They will rise no matter what Australia does, no matter how many coal mines and power stations we close, no matter how many wind turbines and solar panels pollute the Australian landscape.
https://x.com/PaulineHansonOz/status/1807688134060298405

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