Australian Politics Forum

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics 

Posts: 12110
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #1005 - Apr 4^th, 2024 at 9:37am

freediver wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2024 at 1:04pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2024 at 11:45am:

Frank wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2024 at 5:42pm:

And what is the price of expressing dissatisfaction with the CCP?

And what is the price of living in a delusional "natural individuals rights" world?

Would you like to give a straight answer to Frank's question?

Same as the price of contesting the actions of all security spook agencies in any country: severe.

It does depend of the nature of "expressing dissatisfaction"; calls for the overthrow of the government are treason in any nation.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Apr 4^th, 2024 at 3:58pm by thegreatdivide »

IP Logged

Frank

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 43623
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #1006 - Apr 4^th, 2024 at 9:42am

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 4^th, 2024 at 9:37am:

freediver wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2024 at 1:04pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2024 at 11:45am:

Frank wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2024 at 5:42pm:

And what is the price of expressing dissatisfaction with the CCP?

And what is the price of living in a delusional "natural individuals rights" world?

Would you like to give a straight answer to Frank's question?

Same as the price of contesting the actions of all security spook agencies in any country: severe.

It does depend of the nature of "expressig dissatifaction"; calls for the overthroel of the government are treason in any nation.

A call for a CHANGE of government is NOT a call for the 'overthrow' of it, you stupid parrott, and is not 'treason'.

Just try not to go hyperbolic and stupid whenever the shortcomings of communist distatorships is pointed out.

Too much to ask, I know.

Back to top

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics 

Posts: 12110
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #1007 - Apr 4^th, 2024 at 9:43am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2024 at 3:00pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2024 at 12:46pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2024 at 12:00pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2024 at 11:54am:

Liike the NT policeman charged with murder who later admitted racism is rife in trhe NT police.

You are tarring all police with the same brush, all are supposed to act according to law.

But tragically, your delusional 'natural individual rights' ideology is THE cause of endless wars and entrenched poverty in the world, for which you want to blame others.

Deplorable.

If that had happened in China under the CCP, the cop would not even have been arrested and charged with murder, let alone not face trial.

Nonsense. Chinese law says otherwise.

Quote:

The Han Chinese are blindingly ethnic-chauvinistic, so any admission of it would be one long yawn to them.

Link?

Whereas 60% the Han Chinese on Taiwan don't want the DDP.

You’re amazingly ignorant of the ethnocultural group and the regime that rules them.

The losers of the civil war who fled to Taiwan were, and are .....Chinese, today numbering c. 24 million.

cf

google

Taiwanese indigenous peoples, also known as Formosans, Native Taiwanese or Austronesian Taiwanese and formerly as Taiwanese aborigines, Takasago people or Gaoshan people, are the indigenous peoples of Taiwan, with the nationally recognized subgroups numbering about 569,000 or 2.38% of the island's population.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Apr 4^th, 2024 at 3:19pm by thegreatdivide »

IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics 

Posts: 12110
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #1008 - Apr 4^th, 2024 at 9:56am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2024 at 3:06pm:

TGD seems to think collectivism necessarily requires Marxist rule, no freedom speech nor individual rights.

No; I think positive collectivism is Marxist in spirit, in contrast to Western 'individualism'.

The former is guided by the well-being of the individuals in the collective; the latter is driven by the well being of the most competitive individuals in the collective.

Quote:

The successful democratic East Asian societies prove that collectivism is compatible with democracy, free speech and individual rights.

Poverty and suicide caused by relentless competition between individuals in "free" societies still exist in Japan and South Korea.

Not what Marx had in mind when he posited: "workers of the world unite".

I accept your concession.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48814
At my desk.

Re: foundations
Reply #1009 - Apr 4^th, 2024 at 10:07am

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 4^th, 2024 at 9:33am:

freediver wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2024 at 1:02pm:

The CCP has killed about 100 million Chinese people.

About half that number, which is the upper estimate of the Chinese who starved in the Mao-era famine.

ie, about the same number who have died in wars under the US 'rules based order'(sic) since WW2, courtesy of your delusional 'indivdual rights' ideology.

Quote:

How many of them have faced justice for their actions?

er....Mao and his accomplices are all dead.

So Mao only killed 50 million of his own citizens, not 100 million, and "justice" was achieved because he died at 83 years of age, while still in power, most likely from lung and heart problems associated with his chain smoking, but also possibly Parkinson's and Lou Gehrig's. The CCP kept his health problems a state secret and held a massive public funeral for him.

Is that what passes for justice under the CCP? How many millions of Chinese people would a Chinese leader have to kill before the CCP took more drastic measures, like threatening to remove them from office if they didn't slow down the death rate?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

MeisterEckhart

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11222
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #1010 - Apr 4^th, 2024 at 10:09am

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 4^th, 2024 at 9:43am:

The losers of the civil war who fled th Taiwan were, and are .....Chinese, today numbering c. 24 million.

Those who have visited both China and Taiwan will invariably report that there is a massive difference in social and cultural attitudes between the two.

The most stark difference is the coming to the aid of a stranger in need - e.g. after an accident.

In the case of a random accident (even an attempted kidnapping), the Chinese in China will very rarely come to the aid of anyone needing help.

The reason, as explained by local Chinese, is that often the helper is branded the perpetrator as there is a tendency among the Chinese to fleece someone for the accident - perpetrator or not, as the CCP's social welfare system will often simply not assist the injured.

Back to top

IP Logged

MeisterEckhart

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11222
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #1011 - Apr 4^th, 2024 at 10:14am

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 4^th, 2024 at 9:56am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2024 at 3:06pm:

TGD seems to think collectivism necessarily requires Marxist rule, no freedom speech nor individual rights.

No; I think positive collectivism is Marxist in spirit, in contrast to Western 'individualism'.

The former is guided by the well-being of the individuals in the collective; the latter is driven by the well being of the most competitive individuals in the collective.

Quote:

The successful democratic East Asian societies prove that collectivism is compatible with democracy, free speech and individual rights.

Poverty and suicide caused by relentless competition between individuals in "free" societies still exist in Japan and South Korea.

Not what Marx had in mind when he posited: "workers of the world unite".

And all those nets the CCP had to place under windows of factories to prevent successful suicides... Common prosperity, CCP style?

Back to top

IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics 

Posts: 12110
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #1012 - Apr 4^th, 2024 at 3:19pm

freediver wrote on Apr 4^th, 2024 at 10:07am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 4^th, 2024 at 9:33am:

freediver wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2024 at 1:02pm:

The CCP has killed about 100 million Chinese people.

About half that number, which is the upper estimate of the Chinese who starved in the Mao-era famine.

ie, about the same number who have died in wars under the US 'rules based order'(sic) since WW2, courtesy of your delusional 'indivdual rights' ideology.

Quote:

How many of them have faced justice for their actions?

er....Mao and his accomplices are all dead.

So Mao only killed 50 million of his own citizens, not 100 million, and "justice" was achieved because he died at 83 years of age, while still in power, most likely from lung and heart problems associated with his chain smoking, but also possibly Parkinson's and Lou Gehrig's. The CCP kept his health problems a state secret and held a massive public funeral for him.

Yes ...and?

This is the "foundations" thread, and I have exposed the fact the foundations of your "freedom" ideology are founded on quicksand.

Having lost that debate and still refusing to concede, you have decided to divert to what the CCP is doing (or was doing - nothing like mixing past and present, for a deluded "freedom" brain...)

Quote:

Is that what passes for justice under the CCP?

I love your simple-minded questions.

Answer: no.

Quote:

How many millions of Chinese people would a Chinese leader have to kill before the CCP took more drastic measures, like threatening to remove them from office if they didn't slow down the death rate?

Slowing down the death rate is a good thing, right?

The CCP is not the leader.

(See what happens when you ask dumb "freedom" ideology questions?)

Try again.

Back to top

IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics 

Posts: 12110
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #1013 - Apr 4^th, 2024 at 3:29pm

Frank wrote on Apr 4^th, 2024 at 9:42am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 4^th, 2024 at 9:37am:

freediver wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2024 at 1:04pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2024 at 11:45am:

Frank wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2024 at 5:42pm:

And what is the price of expressing dissatisfaction with the CCP?

And what is the price of living in a delusional "natural individuals rights" world?

Would you like to give a straight answer to Frank's question?

Same as the price of contesting the actions of all security spook agencies in any country: severe.

It does depend of the nature of "expressig dissatifaction"; calls for the overthroel of the government are treason in any nation.

A call for a CHANGE of government is NOT a call for the 'overthrow' of it, you stupid parrott, and is not 'treason'.

Oh dear Frank, you've fallen for the "freedom" goons' ideology again.

The CCP IS the government in China; calls to overthrow the CCP are treason.

Just as some want to charge Trump with treason for his attempt to overthrow the elected government in the US.

Quote:

Just try not to go hyperbolic and stupid whenever the shortcomings of communist distatorships is pointed out.

Too much to ask, I know.

Not at all. I'm here to help.

A communist benevolent authority might be very desirable as the democracies - "the worst form of government" - implode under spiralling inequality.

Back to top

IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics 

Posts: 12110
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #1014 - Apr 4^th, 2024 at 3:39pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Apr 4^th, 2024 at 10:09am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 4^th, 2024 at 9:43am:

The losers of the civil war who fled th Taiwan were, and are .....Chinese, today numbering c. 24 million.

Those who have visited both China and Taiwan will invariably report that there is a massive difference in social and cultural attitudes between the two.

Political propaganda from "freedom" goons.

Currently there is a Taiwan delegation, headed by an ex KMT leader, which is visiting the mainland to improve relations. DDP goons are not pleased, of cource.

Quote:

The most stark difference is the coming to the aid of a stranger in need - e.g. after an accident.

In the case of a random accident (even an attempted kidnapping), the Chinese in China will very rarely come to the aid of anyone needing help.

The reason, as explained by local Chinese, is that often the helper is branded the perpetrator as there is a tendency among the Chinese to fleece someone for the accident - perpetrator or not, as the CCP's social welfare system will often simply not assist the injured.

No good samaritans in China? Me thinks you are a blind "freedom" goon bent on defaming an entire nation.

Ever seen what happens in the US and Oz when natural calamities happen? (stealing property etc).

Back to top

« Last Edit: Apr 4^th, 2024 at 3:58pm by thegreatdivide »

IP Logged

Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 82792 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #1015 - Apr 4^th, 2024 at 3:46pm Foundations founded by the founding fathers often founder on the floundering of unfounded governments. Lessee no ... Able Was I Ere I Saw Albo....... I'm working on it.................. ummmmm .... doesn't quite sing yet....
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged

Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 82792 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #1016 - Apr 4^th, 2024 at 3:48pm What need for suicide when the government does a far better job of terminating you with extreme prejudice?
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics 

Posts: 12110
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #1017 - Apr 4^th, 2024 at 3:55pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Apr 4^th, 2024 at 10:14am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 4^th, 2024 at 9:56am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2024 at 3:06pm:

TGD seems to think collectivism necessarily requires Marxist rule, no freedom speech nor individual rights.

No; I think positive collectivism is Marxist in spirit, in contrast to Western 'individualism'.

The former is guided by the well-being of the individuals in the collective; the latter is driven by the well being of the most competitive individuals in the collective.

Quote:

The successful democratic East Asian societies prove that collectivism is compatible with democracy, free speech and individual rights.

Poverty and suicide caused by relentless competition between individuals in "free" societies still exist in Japan and South Korea.

Not what Marx had in mind when he posited: "workers of the world unite".

And all those nets the CCP had to place under windows of factories to prevent successful suicides... Common prosperity, CCP style?

Another simple-minded question from a fake "freedom" goon.

Answer: no; the nets were there to prevent suicide.

Common prosperity is a goal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_relations_in_China

In China there exist labor laws which, if fully enforced, would greatly alleviate common abuses such as not paying workers. In 2006, a new labor law was proposed and submitted for public comment. Enacted in 2008, the Labor Contract Law of the People's Republic of China permits collective bargaining in a form analogous to that standard in Western economies, although the only legal unions would continue to be those affiliated with the All-China Federation of Trade Unions, the Communist Party's official union organization. The new law has support from labor activists, but was opposed by some foreign corporations, including the American Chamber of Commerce and the European Chamber of Commerce. There is some expectation that the law would be enforced.[who?][9][10][11] In 2010 a substantial increase in labor related cases brought to court in 2008 was reported.[12]

Note the bolded - well blow me down, greedy Western capitalists opposing labour law reform in China.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Apr 4^th, 2024 at 4:05pm by thegreatdivide »

IP Logged

Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 82792 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #1018 - Apr 4^th, 2024 at 4:02pm Aha - Numbah Ten!! You expose that Mao kill fifty million Chinee and die in bed.... state funeral.... now CCP trigger bomb in Hamas tunnel under South China Sea shake up Taiwan and Japan...... Confucius say do not confuse Confucian concept with conceptualised categories of confused Confucianism. You follow? Is easy.....
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged

thegreatdivide

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics 

Posts: 12110
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #1019 - Apr 4^th, 2024 at 4:03pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Apr 4^th, 2024 at 3:46pm:

Foundations founded by the founding fathers often founder on the floundering of unfounded governments.

A good spiel... shall I add " and founded on "individual freedom" delusions.

Quote:

Lessee no ... Able Was I Ere I Saw Albo....... I'm working on it.................. ummmmm .... doesn't quite sing yet....

Indeed, needs work....

Back to top

IP Logged