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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #135 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 5:11pm

aquascoot wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 4:57pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:46pm:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:41pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:39pm:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:30pm:

We have to start somewhere -
make it 100,000 then - no more.

What's the alternative - bring in 2 million rickshaw drivers?

Do you know anything about the Australian immigration process?

Ask an immigrant.

No - but 1.6 million people came into this country over the last 4 years
and that is only what they've admitted to.

That's equivalent to a city the size of Adelaide.

Where are they living?

Given nearly all of them will possess high-end required skills, in middle-class to upper-middle-class houses, I'd bet.

Should people in rural Australia go without doctors, healthcare workers, police etc... due to curbing immigration for its own sake?

its doubtful that , of the 300,000 immigrants, there are more then a few hundred doctors and police.

Or any prospective migrant with any skills as attached.

https://www.australianskilledmigration.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Skilled...

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #136 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 5:22pm

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:51pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:46pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:35pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:33pm:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:09pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:01pm:

Do you understand the concept of intersubjective reality?

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/9781405165518.wbeosi067.pub2

Intersubjectivity

Intersubjectivity refers to a shared perception of reality between two or more individuals. The term presupposes that we, as human beings, cannot know reality except through our own senses: sight, hearing, smell, taste, or tactile feeling. Accordingly, each individual's reality is necessarily subjective and it is impossible for one person to know how anyone else perceives the world.

Thanks for this excellent description of the term.

My one quibble so far: surely 'reality', and perception of the world, also involves abstract thinking, as well as feeling via the senses.

Quote:

However, people assume that the world and social interactions follow rules that are outside the control of any one person.

...which is true, aka rule of law.

Quote:

This presumed consensus allows us to co-ordinate our activities in the expectation that others share our views about what is normal, right, healthy, expected behavior. This pair of opposite truths presents a problem for anyone studying how people view their worlds; neither objectivity nor subjectivity is sufficient to explain the life experiences of the individual. Sociologists study intersubjectivity as an intermediate position people use to navigate this problem.

Indeed. Navigate, but not solve this problem; only rule of law - whatever its content - can adjudicate between self-interested individuals.

You are way off the mark.

Please explain?

You do not know what the term means.

Classic fraudiver...

Please explain the term?

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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #137 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 5:27pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 5:22pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:51pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:46pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:35pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:33pm:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:09pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:01pm:

Do you understand the concept of intersubjective reality?

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/9781405165518.wbeosi067.pub2

Intersubjectivity

Intersubjectivity refers to a shared perception of reality between two or more individuals. The term presupposes that we, as human beings, cannot know reality except through our own senses: sight, hearing, smell, taste, or tactile feeling. Accordingly, each individual's reality is necessarily subjective and it is impossible for one person to know how anyone else perceives the world.

Thanks for this excellent description of the term.

My one quibble so far: surely 'reality', and perception of the world, also involves abstract thinking, as well as feeling via the senses.

Quote:

However, people assume that the world and social interactions follow rules that are outside the control of any one person.

...which is true, aka rule of law.

Quote:

This presumed consensus allows us to co-ordinate our activities in the expectation that others share our views about what is normal, right, healthy, expected behavior. This pair of opposite truths presents a problem for anyone studying how people view their worlds; neither objectivity nor subjectivity is sufficient to explain the life experiences of the individual. Sociologists study intersubjectivity as an intermediate position people use to navigate this problem.

Indeed. Navigate, but not solve this problem; only rule of law - whatever its content - can adjudicate between self-interested individuals.

You are way off the mark.

Please explain?

You do not know what the term means.

Classic fraudiver...

Please explain the term?

It refers to things that become real as a consequence of shared belief in them.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #138 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 5:42pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:46pm:

Given nearly all of them will possess high-end required skills, in middle-class to upper-middle-class houses, I'd bet.

That is not true at all, so you'd lose that bet.

Not even an Australian university degree is sufficient for most overseas student graduates to secure a job commensurate with their qualifications. Some professional bodies, like nurses, do not accept an Australian university degree as sufficient evidence of English language competency for registration as a professional practitioner.

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2023/12/international-graduates-dominate-austra.../

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #139 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 5:51pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 2:56pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 2:30pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 2:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 2:10pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:30am:

Quote:

Oh no....the dreaded "intersubjective reality" delusion rears its head again.

Why do you dread it? Do you understand the concept?

Didn't you read my post?

I did. You do not appear to understand the concept. I have only ever seen you try to avoid it. Most likely because having a convenient, cogent definition for it makes it harder for you to push your idiotic argument that it does not exist.

It does exist, but it's delusional, as I explained.

Spot the difference?

But explaining reality to someone suffering delusions, eg the 'natural individual rights' delusion, is extremely difficult...psych hospitals are full of such people...

Ah yes - the old 'anyone who objects to the true nature of the uberkontrolling state or even jokes about it' must be suffering from a mental illness....

No; anyone who is delusional eg believes in 'natural individual rights' is suffering from a mental illness.

Prof Jeremy Giffith (WTM) calls it the "human psychosis" (see below)

Quote:

that one went out with the Leninists and Stalinists, didn't it? Marx of course, had zero 'natural individual right' to generate (not create) his version of economic reality

The decision to study economic processes, as Marx did, doesn't require 'natural individual rights', it requires comitted intellectual labour.

Quote:

.... Stalin had no 'natural individual right' to determine what that Marxist state should look like, any more than Mao did.... they just somehow stumbled along with it and into it with the blind herd lead by the state...

Note: blaming Marx for Stalinist Russia is like blaming Christ for the Spanish Inquisition.

But again, nothing to do with the 'natural individual rights' delusion (such 'rights' don't exist in nature). You are confusing faulty law with 'rights'; oppressive Stalinist "laws" were created by Stalin, whereas laws designed to implement shared prosperity are desirable, by definition.

Quote:

dividie - do you have a single idea what you are raving about? The doors of the mental institution are yawning wide for you, my son.

Explained above? (for the umpteenth time...).

Fortunately the "human psychosis"** identified by Griffith, doesn't result in all of us being locked up, it just causes the endless wars and entrenched poverty ruining our world.

** Griffith's first book introduces the issue of the human condition and his biological explanation of it. It describes how the human condition is the result of a conflict between our instinctive self struggling against our intellect's need to understand existence.

Ouch....

Quote:

Take your tablets on time, please.... the limited staff don't have the time to watch over your every move... and you don't want to be strapped to your bed 23 hours a day, now, do you??

Er graps - as a matter fact I don't take any medication at all, except for glaucoma eye drops once a day.

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« Last Edit: Mar 4^th, 2024 at 5:59pm by thegreatdivide »

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: foundations
Reply #140 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 6:05pm

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 5:27pm:

It refers to things that become real as a consequence of shared belief in them.

Transgenderism, wage gap against women, the actual existence of Men's Rights, Aboriginal Genocide and Oppression and special Rights, gay persecution, that a cop and not a gay killed those two young men, the Kennedy Assassination was not a team effort, minority persecution and special rights (again), racism in Australia, Divine Right Of Elected Government (the infamous 'mandate'), ... Jesus - what a list here, Igor....

https://www.quora.com/How-come-JFK-has-an-immediate-reaction-to-being-shot-while...

Now HTF was Connally shot through and through right to left while turned over 90 degrees in his seat back towards Kennedy who was already struggling with the neck hit.... run that one through frame by frame and the moment of impact is clear when Connolly's cheeks blow out.. and he is nearly turned backwards in his seat and looking at Kennedy... read his lips - What The Fork!

Did that magic bullet somehow turn over 90 degrees in mid air after exiting Kennedy's throat, and still have enough energy to do a through and through.. it was a Carcano 6.5mm, FCS - not a NATO 7.62 AP round (slightly heavier and more powder and as said - Armour Piercing) which we all know can turn 90 deg+ corners.... well - at least it can do two through and throughs... in a straight line or nearly..

You drink it! There was a second gunman to the left of the car.... meaning via triangulation there were three.. the last on the grassy knoll was the perfect spot, and that was most likely a 7.62 or similar AP round.... massive penetration and through and through.

Connolly was in the way of the head shot from the grassy knoll.... thus was removed ... these guys were experts... not some 50% shooter ex-Marine.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #141 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 6:09pm

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 5:27pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 5:22pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:51pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:46pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:35pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:33pm:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:09pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:01pm:

Do you understand the concept of intersubjective reality?

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/9781405165518.wbeosi067.pub2

Intersubjectivity

Intersubjectivity refers to a shared perception of reality between two or more individuals. The term presupposes that we, as human beings, cannot know reality except through our own senses: sight, hearing, smell, taste, or tactile feeling. Accordingly, each individual's reality is necessarily subjective and it is impossible for one person to know how anyone else perceives the world.

Thanks for this excellent description of the term.

My one quibble so far: surely 'reality', and perception of the world, also involves abstract thinking, as well as feeling via the senses.

Quote:

However, people assume that the world and social interactions follow rules that are outside the control of any one person.

...which is true, aka rule of law.

Quote:

This presumed consensus allows us to co-ordinate our activities in the expectation that others share our views about what is normal, right, healthy, expected behavior. This pair of opposite truths presents a problem for anyone studying how people view their worlds; neither objectivity nor subjectivity is sufficient to explain the life experiences of the individual. Sociologists study intersubjectivity as an intermediate position people use to navigate this problem.

Indeed. Navigate, but not solve this problem; only rule of law - whatever its content - can adjudicate between self-interested individuals.

You are way off the mark.

Please explain?

You do not know what the term means.

Classic fraudiver...

Please explain the term?

It refers to things that become real as a consequence of shared belief in them.

Shared belief by particular groups, regardless of reality.

Got it....

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #142 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 6:11pm Quote: Got it.... Can you give an example?
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #143 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 6:30pm

Frank wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 5:42pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:46pm:

Given nearly all of them will possess high-end required skills, in middle-class to upper-middle-class houses, I'd bet.

That is not true at all, so you'd lose that bet.

Not even an Australian university degree is sufficient for most overseas student graduates to secure a job commensurate with their qualifications. Some professional bodies, like nurses, do not accept an Australian university degree as sufficient evidence of English language competency for registration as a professional practitioner.

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2023/12/international-graduates-dominate-austra.../

What percentage of immigrants were/are international students/graduates?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #144 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 6:38pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 6:05pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 5:27pm:

It refers to things that become real as a consequence of shared belief in them.

Transgenderism,

?? 0.1% of the population ARE transgender

Quote:

wage gap against women,

?? Women DO work less paid hours than men over their life time, to bear and suckle children.

Quote:

the actual existence of Men's Rights,

?? "Mens Rights" eg union rights, were hard fought for and hard won. Sex rights? Tricky, it requires 'negotiation' with women....

Quote:

Aboriginal Genocide and Oppression

Historical truth, clouded today by systemic economic oppression resulting in welfare dependency.

Quote:

and special Rights

You mean positive discrimination to overcome economic gaps? A JG will eliminate the need for that nonsense.

Quote:

gay persecution, that a cop and not a gay killed those two young men,

At last - a fair point amongst all the dross...a gay killed 2 gays, nothing to do with gay persecution (formerly VERY real, in the bad old days...)

Quote:

the Kennedy Assassination was not a team effort,

You know who did it? Wonderful....

Quote:

racism in Australia,

.....was once very real, aka the 'white Oz policy'

Quote:

Divine Right Of Elected Government (the infamous 'mandate'), ... Jesus - what a list here, Igor....

Er...the topic was "shared belief" in "reality"...

But indeed the 50%+1 "mandate" is problematic.

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Bobby.

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Re: foundations
Reply #145 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 6:41pm

aquascoot wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 5:06pm:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 3:51pm:

Come on - most of them are in the big cities and
many are living 6 at a time in one bedroom flats. Roll Eyes

indians and chinese feel within their comfort zone when crowded

my sister had a lot of chinese uni srudents stay with her over the time and they often would move out of having their own bedroom to kick in with 20 or so other chinese students , 5 to a room.

and there are an indian family i know of with 4 families in a house and 3 taxis and the guys run those cabs 24/7. they change shifts like supercar drivers change drivers at bathurst .

i'm all for it

i admire the work ethic of the chinese and the indians

i dont think the samoan and tongans and maori are in the same cohort, work wise
and a lot of them are very fat, get diabetes and then spend 40 years clogging up hospitals .

albo needs to connect with the stud manager at coolmore stud and think about what sort of bloodstock we should be importing to improve the national herd.

i would be going all out to get people from singapore, malaysia, south korea, (and china and india) as these places are aspirational and industrious

and like dubai , i would import phillipinos and pakistanis on working visas , on $3 an hour ( a fortune for these guys) and they would build good quality affordable housing

the current slack fat sloppy white trash in most of our cities have probably never held a hammer in their hands and would probably faint the first time the temp hit 30 degrees Roll Eyes

Hi Aqua,
you should have been a comedian.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12490 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #146 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 6:47pm freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 6:11pm: Quote: Got it.... Can you give an example? Religious Zionists with their "promised Land" "reality"; and Morrison with his related beliefs re 'anti-christian' China, not shared by eg, Keating or myself - being more interested in reality.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: foundations
Reply #147 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 7:17pm

Why RELIGIOUS Zionists? Like... errr.. all others are not looking at their Promised Land? God promised that to Moses, long ago.. Mose never made it but the others did... many anyway... but it was always The Promised Land......

During this latest fighting I can feel my 10% Jewish calling me to Yom Israel.... I have no religion... it's in the blood....one rellie went to a kibbutz in the 1970's - a Walters I believe .. Doug Walters family member married my mother's cousin... I was shagging two of their daughters before I even knew we were related.... one of them talked a lot about some one who was in a kibbutz...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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it_is_the_light Gold Member Offline Christ Light Posts: 41434 The Pyramid of LIGHT Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #148 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 7:49pm freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2024 at 2:53pm: The Foundations of Modern Civilisation Power Wealth Liberty Universal Education Women’s Rights Freedom of the Press Constraint of Monopoly Economic Rights Human Rights Rejection of Slavery Rejection of Corruption Democracy Equality Before the Law 🤔
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #149 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 7:49pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 6:47pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 6:11pm:

Quote:

Got it....

Can you give an example?

Religious Zionists with their "promised Land" "reality";
and Morrison with his related beliefs re 'anti-christian' China, not shared by eg, Keating or myself - being more interested in reality.

Totalitarians with their "societal utopias"?

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