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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #240 - Mar 6^th, 2024 at 2:15pm Quote: Gold's imagined intrinsic value is not obvious to all and neither is it universal. It used to be obvious to anyone who had it. It's value has been universal since we had ships to move it. It's a lot easier to transport than a cow.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #241 - Mar 6^th, 2024 at 2:38pm

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 2:15pm:

Quote:

Gold's imagined intrinsic value is not obvious to all and neither is it universal.

It used to be obvious to anyone who had it.

It's value has been universal since we had ships to move it. It's a lot easier to transport than a cow.

A cow's intrinsic value is immediately obvious, indisputable, and immutable, to all. Precious metals' intrinsic value is not - because they have had little to no practical use.

That being said, silver especially has become of immense value due to its intrinsic chemical properties - something which has only revealed itself since the 20th century.

From a bactericide to a preservative to an exceptional electrical conductor to its being essential in solar panel production to weapons production, silver has outdone itself. Ironic that, despite its use exponentially beating out gold and its scarcity only 16 times greater than gold, its price is 85 to 90 times less costly than gold.

Proves what a crock imposed value is on commodities that for most of world history had no obvious value other than what priests and kings had conjured up through myth and hype.

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Re: foundations
Reply #242 - Mar 6^th, 2024 at 2:43pm

Quote:

A cow's intrinsic value is immediately obvious, indisputable, and immutable, to all.

How does a vegetarian value a cow?

Quote:

That being said, silver especially has become of immense value due to its intrinsic chemical properties - something which has only revealed itself since the 20th century.

So all those wealthy Europeans from the past were accidentally polishing their silver?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #243 - Mar 6^th, 2024 at 2:54pm

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 2:43pm:

Quote:

A cow's intrinsic value is immediately obvious, indisputable, and immutable, to all.

How does a vegetarian value a cow?

Quote:

That being said, silver especially has become of immense value due to its intrinsic chemical properties - something which has only revealed itself since the 20th century.

So all those wealthy Europeans from the past were accidentally polishing their silver?

I think a vegetarian can intuit the value of a cow to hunter-gatherer and nomadic cultures and meat eaters. Would a vegetarian necessarily object to a cow being used to help plough fields to grow vegetables?

Aristocrats' had their servants polishing silver because owning silver was deemed a status symbol - owning a lot of something rare with no intrinsic value for its own sake - as was owning diamonds, rubies, sapphires and emeralds.

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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #244 - Mar 6^th, 2024 at 3:14pm

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Aristocrats' had their servants polishing silver because owning silver was deemed a status symbol

You have it backwards. You are confusing "status symbol" with "nothing more than a symbol." Status symbols are rarely arbitrary, even if the value has been lost to history.

In an age where common infections regularly kill, do you think eating with utensils that do not rust or rot, made out of an antibacterial metal rather than shitstained hands would have had a recognisable value?

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: foundations
Reply #245 - Mar 6^th, 2024 at 3:15pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 10:31am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 10:12am:

Many prefer to consider that work in lieu of a free ride is a disaster... work IS, after all, the curse of the drinking class!

It is an obvious reality, which we all learn from a very early age, that unearned income cannot be as valued as that which is earned by effort.

It's why we admire those who started with nothing and earned a fortune by hard work and secretly resent people who win large sums of money.

There's always time to save your self from early indoctrination.... Cool

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #246 - Mar 6^th, 2024 at 3:28pm

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 3:14pm:

Quote:

Aristocrats' had their servants polishing silver because owning silver was deemed a status symbol

You have it backwards. You are confusing "status symbol" with "nothing more than a symbol." Status symbols are rarely arbitrary, even if the value has been lost to history.

In an age where common infections regularly kill, do you think eating with utensils that do not rust or rot, made out of an antibacterial metal rather than shitstained hands would have had a recognisable value?

Precious metals owe their value as status symbols to their scarcity and lustre.

Silver was not known as a bactericide until the late 19th century.

Drinking from silver cups caused Argyria - bluing of the skin - that, aristocrats have known for centuries.

Using utensils was not a general custom until recently - before modern times it was only practised by aristocrats who used silver utensils, cups and plates to flaunt their wealth.

When Aluminium was first discovered it was considered rare and was extremely hard to extract from its ore. Napoleon had Aluminium plates made to flaunt his wealth to other aristocrats and monarchs of Europe.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #247 - Mar 6^th, 2024 at 3:30pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 3:15pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 10:31am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 10:12am:

Many prefer to consider that work in lieu of a free ride is a disaster... work IS, after all, the curse of the drinking class!

It is an obvious reality, which we all learn from a very early age, that unearned income cannot be as valued as that which is earned by effort.

It's why we admire those who started with nothing and earned a fortune by hard work and secretly resent people who win large sums of money.

There's always time to save your self from early indoctrination.... Cool

Do you secretly admire lucky Lotto winners and despise hard-working rich people?

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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #248 - Mar 6^th, 2024 at 3:36pm

Don't you think it's a bit arrogant to assume it had no inherent value to the people who bought it, just because it is not immediately obvious to you?

Quote:

Using utensils was not a general custom until recently - before modern times it was only practised by aristocrats who used silver utensils, cups and plates to flaunt their wealth.

Do people have rational reasons for using cutlery today? Isn't it a far simpler explanation for this 'coincidence' that people had some or all of the same reasons in the past, and that so few people used metal cutlery in the past because most people could not afford to?

Do you think poor people who ate their gruel from a wooden bowl using a wooden spoon were just showing off to the even poorer people who had none? And the people who made a cup out of whatever they could, even if it did not last or gave them food poisoning occasionally, were just showing off to the people who had to drink like animals?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #249 - Mar 6^th, 2024 at 3:42pm

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 3:36pm:

Don't you think it's a bit arrogant to assume it had no inherent value to the people who bought it, just because it is not immediately obvious to you?

Quote:

Using utensils was not a general custom until recently - before modern times it was only practised by aristocrats who used silver utensils, cups and plates to flaunt their wealth.

Do people have rational reasons for using cutlery today? Isn't it a far simpler explanation for this 'coincidence' that people had some or all of the same reasons in the past, and that so few people used metal cutlery in the past because most people could not afford to?

Do you think poor people who ate their gruel from a wooden bowl using a wooden spoon were just showing off to the even poorer people who had none? And the people who made a cup out of whatever they could, even if it did not last or gave them food poisoning occasionally, were just showing off to the people who had to drink like animals?

Awww...

Why do you think your nana kept her best china for special occasions or for when important guests came to dinner?

Why do people dress up, even put on fine gold jewellery, when they go out on a special occasion?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #250 - Mar 6^th, 2024 at 3:48pm If you were given a choice between eating porridge with your bare hands, a wooden spoon, or a silver spoon, which would you choose? And how hard would you have to think about it? Would you get out a chemistry textbook to check the properties of silver? Would your answer depend on whether the Jones' from next door were watching you?
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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #251 - Mar 6^th, 2024 at 4:52pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 2:02pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 12:37pm:

Quote:

How do gold and silver have intrinsic value?

As jewellery, and in various industrial applications. For example gold plated electrical connections work well because it does not rust and has a few other good properties. Gold would probably not have become a form of money in ancient times if not for it's use as jewellery. Most other early forms of money are the same.

Gold's imagined intrinsic value is not obvious to all and neither is it universal.

Some people, tribes and cultures don't like gold or see nothing intrinsically valuable in it.

They may also see it as an evil.

As opposed to a cow whose intrinsic value is obvious, is universally indisputable and is intrinsically good - a blessing from a god, even.

However, precious metals are immensely more convenient as a medium of exchange than cows, and it is that convenience, that would have gone a long way to making them preferable to cows - and never mind the metaphysical mythology that grew around the likes of gold and silver as, say, tears of the sun god and moon goddess.

The same way such tribes would not see any value in a $100 bill since it would symbolise nothing in their world.

But there is no tribe that doesn't see value in a cow because the value of it is not at all symbolic or dependent on abstraction.

Pr each oo is metals were the first semi-symbolic, portable e symbols of cows and all other exchangable things of value, including labour.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #252 - Mar 6^th, 2024 at 4:57pm

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 3:48pm:

If you were given a choice between eating porridge with your bare hands, a wooden spoon, or a silver spoon, which would you choose? And how hard would you have to think about it? Would you get out a chemistry textbook to check the properties of silver? Would your answer depend on whether the Jones' from next door were watching you?

OK, so now we're moving away from the intrinsic value of a precious metal in itself to the intrinsic value of one object relative to another.

A clean metal spoon may have a slightly greater intrinsic value than a (presumably clean) wooden spoon, but the difference may be more due to aesthetics than hygiene - shiny metal may look prettier to the observer than wood.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #253 - Mar 6^th, 2024 at 4:59pm Quote: A clean metal spoon may have a slightly greater intrinsic value than a (presumably clean) wooden spoon, but the difference may be more due to aesthetics than hygiene - shiny metal may look prettier to the observer than wood. Have you ever tried to clean wooden cutlery?
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #254 - Mar 6^th, 2024 at 5:07pm

Frank wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 4:52pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 2:02pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 12:37pm:

Quote:

How do gold and silver have intrinsic value?

As jewellery, and in various industrial applications. For example gold plated electrical connections work well because it does not rust and has a few other good properties. Gold would probably not have become a form of money in ancient times if not for it's use as jewellery. Most other early forms of money are the same.

Gold's imagined intrinsic value is not obvious to all and neither is it universal.

Some people, tribes and cultures don't like gold or see nothing intrinsically valuable in it.

They may also see it as an evil.

As opposed to a cow whose intrinsic value is obvious, is universally indisputable and is intrinsically good - a blessing from a god, even.

However, precious metals are immensely more convenient as a medium of exchange than cows, and it is that convenience, that would have gone a long way to making them preferable to cows - and never mind the metaphysical mythology that grew around the likes of gold and silver as, say, tears of the sun god and moon goddess.

The same way such tribes would not see any value in a $100 bill since it would symbolise nothing in their world.

But there is no tribe that doesn't see value in a cow because the value of it is not at all symbolic or dependent on abstraction.

Pr each oo is metals were the first semi-symbolic, portable e symbols of cows and all other exchangable things of value, including labour.

Indeed they were, but that does not detract from the fact that cows were (and are in some regions) money -

Precious metals were and are more practical when trading with people in towns and cities. and over vast distances - which is why all concerned parties must agree that they have a certain fixed value.

Value is like energy - everyone knows what you mean by the terms but defining them is a problem of Socratic proportions.

Precious metals dealers are not content with them having merely an agreed arbitrary value (these days expressed in US dollars), they instead rabbit on about 5000+ years of use as a store of wealth = intrinsic value. Drink more piss... Billions of drunks over thousands of years can't be wrong.

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