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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #285 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 9:59am

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 9:18am:

ANyway, you are confusing value (of a cow, of wheat) with money which is a symbol of value.
Money does not represent a cow or wheat. Money represents value. The cow and the wheat have some value but they are NOT value, they are cow and heat.

No. The cow was used as money. It was a medium of exchange used for trade, labour payment and debts between tribes and clans. Those tribes judged their relative status by how many cows they owned relative to other tribes. They accumulated cows even beyond their immediate need for them all - i.e.cows were money. The fact that they had intrinsic value beyond their symbolic use notwithstanding.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #286 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 10:13am

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 10:17am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 8:22am:

freediver wrote on Mar 5^th, 2024 at 11:28am:

Quote:

you insist on raising belief to the status of reality

Again, you misunderstand. It does not mean that belief is reality.

So far so good....we have common ground; let's read on:

Quote:

Rather, it means that reality can be a consequence of shared belief.

eg the 'shared belief' among some people that Palestine belongs to Jews makes the ownership real, according to you.

Problem; this 'reality' can only be maintained through continuous warfare, as we have seen for the last 75 years.

Quote:

It's a logical step, which I have not bothered to point out so far, because I thought it would be too obvious for anyone to question.

Think again....

I recommend you try to understand that concept instead of trying to come up with an argument against it because you are frightened of it. You cannot learn unless you stop talking.

I recommend you take up the debate where it is currently at: belief and even shared belief, are NOT reality.

Quote:

Do you understand how money can have real value only if there is a shared belief in that value?

Depends on the 'money' in question. eg, Bitcoin's value certainly arises from "shared belief" (and watch out when some decide to bail out of that ponzi scheme....).

Whereas the Oz dollar's value is based on the Oz nation's productivity - and the fact Oz citizens need it to pay government fees and taxes (but note: the currency-issuing Oz government doesn't need your taxes to fund government spending - see MMT).

So the "shared belief" in the value of the Oz dollar is based on those 2 realities ie productivity and taxation.

Not your delusional "intersubjective reality".

..a delusion resulting in the subsequent long and confused arguments re value (silver versus wooden spoons, fgs.....silver and gold have always fascinated men for their dazzling quality, expressed via jewellry and flounted by the wealthy).

So your Palestine belongs to Jews "shared belief" is not reality, ditto for your "shared belief" in the value of fiat currency; the latter's value is based on reality, not belief.

Keep trying....

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« Last Edit: Mar 8^th, 2024 at 10:49am by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #287 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 10:36am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 9:43am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 9:23am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 10:12am:

Many prefer to consider that work in lieu of a free ride is a disaster... work IS, after all, the curse of the drinking class!

Many might prefer it, but the moral - and economically rational position - is: "from each according to his ability...." . No free-riders required.

Quote:

The greatest foundation of culture, society and civilisation is reality....

And I already showed FD's "intersubjective reality' is delusional.

Just as your Classical Liberal 'natural individual rights' dogma is also delusional.

... and yet your total enslavement to the whim of the state is not delusional?

Your error there: rule of law in NOT necessarily enslavement, and can be the ONLY means to free humans from the 'human condition' of continuous war and entrenched poverty among disadvantaged groups.

Quote:

Millions of years of human individual endeavour disagree with you...

Hang on there...homo sapiens emerged c 300k years ago; in any case, individual endevour driven by self interest has resulted in the current global/national reality which is far from achieving shared prosperity.

Only the public sector with its ability to make law can engender shared prosperity - it's not the private sector's job to do that.

Quote:

we are - or were - nearing the pinnacle of reliable and self-reliant human behaviour in the West -

In the West (after the industrial revolution), only for a short period after WW2, during the Keynesian welfare state era - in which "welfare"was at it's minimum, because the state ensured full employment. (Menzies almost lost the 1960 election, because unemployment had ticked up to (gasp) 2%...

Quote:

then we brought in all those antithetical groups to reduce us all down to the grasping peasant level.....

Africa is in a mess due to the current global neoliberal economic orthodoxy.

But apparently China and India will be bigger economies than the US, by 1940.

Stay tuned....

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« Last Edit: Mar 8^th, 2024 at 10:43am by thegreatdivide »

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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #288 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 1:04pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 10:13am:

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 10:17am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 8:22am:

freediver wrote on Mar 5^th, 2024 at 11:28am:

Quote:

you insist on raising belief to the status of reality

Again, you misunderstand. It does not mean that belief is reality.

So far so good....we have common ground; let's read on:

Quote:

Rather, it means that reality can be a consequence of shared belief.

eg the 'shared belief' among some people that Palestine belongs to Jews makes the ownership real, according to you.

Problem; this 'reality' can only be maintained through continuous warfare, as we have seen for the last 75 years.

Quote:

It's a logical step, which I have not bothered to point out so far, because I thought it would be too obvious for anyone to question.

Think again....

I recommend you try to understand that concept instead of trying to come up with an argument against it because you are frightened of it. You cannot learn unless you stop talking.

I recommend you take up the debate where it is currently at: belief and even shared belief, are NOT reality.

Quote:

Do you understand how money can have real value only if there is a shared belief in that value?

Depends on the 'money' in question. eg, Bitcoin's value certainly arises from "shared belief" (and watch out when some decide to bail out of that ponzi scheme....).

Whereas the Oz dollar's value is based on the Oz nation's productivity - and the fact Oz citizens need it to pay government fees and taxes (but note: the currency-issuing Oz government doesn't need your taxes to fund government spending - see MMT).

So the "shared belief" in the value of the Oz dollar is based on those 2 realities ie productivity and taxation.

Not your delusional "intersubjective reality".

..a delusion resulting in the subsequent long and confused arguments re value (silver versus wooden spoons, fgs.....silver and gold have always fascinated men for their dazzling quality, expressed via jewellry and flounted by the wealthy).

So your Palestine belongs to Jews "shared belief" is not reality, ditto for your "shared belief" in the value of fiat currency; the latter's value is based on reality, not belief.

Keep trying....

Yes, we are about 6 months into it, and you have not progressed beyond your inane, stupid initial response, to a concept you do not understand, and which you do not realise invalidates pretty much everything you say on the subject. You spend pages and pages arguing against something that you made up yourself, instead of responding to what others actually say, or even trying to understand it.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #289 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 1:28pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 9:59am:

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 9:18am:

http://www.yabbforum.com/
ANyway, you are confusing value (of a cow, of wheat) with money which is a symbol of value.
Money does not represent a cow or wheat. Money represents value. The cow and the wheat have some value but they are NOT value, they are cow and heat.

No. The cow was used as money. It was a medium of exchange used for trade, labour payment and debts between tribes and clans. Those tribes judged their relative status by how many cows they owned relative to other tribes. They accumulated cows even beyond their immediate need for them all - i.e.cows were money. The fact that they had intrinsic value beyond their symbolic use notwithstanding.

You are retrofitting the cows and bartering into money.

You cannot put 20 cows into your pocket and go travelling. You can put some good money in your pocket or on your card and go anywhere.

Or you can have some bad money and go nowhere.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #290 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 1:57pm

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 1:04pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 10:13am:

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 10:17am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 8:22am:

freediver wrote on Mar 5^th, 2024 at 11:28am:

Quote:

you insist on raising belief to the status of reality

Again, you misunderstand. It does not mean that belief is reality.

So far so good....we have common ground; let's read on:

Quote:

Rather, it means that reality can be a consequence of shared belief.

eg the 'shared belief' among some people that Palestine belongs to Jews makes the ownership real, according to you.

Problem; this 'reality' can only be maintained through continuous warfare, as we have seen for the last 75 years.

Quote:

It's a logical step, which I have not bothered to point out so far, because I thought it would be too obvious for anyone to question.

Think again....

I recommend you try to understand that concept instead of trying to come up with an argument against it because you are frightened of it. You cannot learn unless you stop talking.

I recommend you take up the debate where it is currently at: belief and even shared belief, are NOT reality.

Quote:

Do you understand how money can have real value only if there is a shared belief in that value?

Depends on the 'money' in question. eg, Bitcoin's value certainly arises from "shared belief" (and watch out when some decide to bail out of that ponzi scheme....).

Whereas the Oz dollar's value is based on the Oz nation's productivity - and the fact Oz citizens need it to pay government fees and taxes (but note: the currency-issuing Oz government doesn't need your taxes to fund government spending - see MMT).

So the "shared belief" in the value of the Oz dollar is based on those 2 realities ie productivity and taxation.

Not your delusional "intersubjective reality".

..a delusion resulting in the subsequent long and confused arguments re value (silver versus wooden spoons, fgs.....silver and gold have always fascinated men for their dazzling quality, expressed via jewellry and flounted by the wealthy).

So your Palestine belongs to Jews "shared belief" is not reality, ditto for your "shared belief" in the value of fiat currency; the latter's value is based on reality, not belief.

Keep trying....

Yes, we are about 6 months into it, and you have not progressed beyond your inane, stupid initial response, to a concept you do not understand, and which you do not realise invalidates pretty much everything you say on the subject. You spend pages and pages arguing against something that you made up yourself, instead of responding to what others actually say, or even trying to understand it.

Obviously wrong, you are a liar as well as incompetent: I demolished the nonsense of your delusional "fiat currency value depends on shared belief" nonsense, for everyone to see.

Your lying caused by blind delusional ideology....
an innocent liar?

Do try to learn:

"Whereas the Oz dollar's value is based on the Oz nation's productivity - and the fact Oz citizens need it to pay government fees and taxes (but note: the currency-issuing Oz government doesn't need your taxes to fund government spending - see MMT).

Stop playing the old 'me no understand' trick.

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« Last Edit: Mar 8^th, 2024 at 2:17pm by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #291 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 2:10pm

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 1:28pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 9:59am:

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 9:18am:

http://www.yabbforum.com/
ANyway, you are confusing value (of a cow, of wheat) with money which is a symbol of value.
Money does not represent a cow or wheat. Money represents value. The cow and the wheat have some value but they are NOT value, they are cow and heat.

No. The cow was used as money. It was a medium of exchange used for trade, labour payment and debts between tribes and clans. Those tribes judged their relative status by how many cows they owned relative to other tribes. They accumulated cows even beyond their immediate need for them all - i.e.cows were money. The fact that they had intrinsic value beyond their symbolic use notwithstanding.

You are retrofitting the cows and bartering into money.

No he isn't. The cows - and exchange of real goods -came before records of debt and credit, and before the sovereign issued units of exchange called money.

Quote:

You cannot put 20 cows into your pocket and go travelling.

You could exchange some cows for other goods and services, in a pre-money economy.

Quote:

You can put some good money in your pocket or on your card and go anywhere.

Yes, fiat money whose value is based on a nation's productivity.

Quote:

Or you can have some bad money and go nowhere.

That's correct: hyperinflation is associated with collapsed supply, as happened in Zimbabwe when blacks attempted to confiscate white farms.

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« Last Edit: Mar 8^th, 2024 at 2:19pm by thegreatdivide »

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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #292 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 2:30pm

Quote:

I demolished the nonsense of your delusional "fiat currency value depends on shared belief" nonsense, for everyone to see.

Chanting that it is nonsense just demonstrates you do not understand what is being said. You are great at slaying your own little fantasies, but nothing more. How can you "demolish" a concept you do not comprehend?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #293 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 2:33pm

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 10:17am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6^th, 2024 at 8:22am:

freediver wrote on Mar 5^th, 2024 at 11:28am:

Quote:

you insist on raising belief to the status of reality

Again, you misunderstand. It does not mean that belief is reality.

So far so good....we have common ground; let's read on:

Quote:

Rather, it means that reality can be a consequence of shared belief.

eg the 'shared belief' among some people that Palestine belongs to Jews makes the ownership real, according to you.

Problem; this 'reality' can only be maintained through continuous warfare, as we have seen for the last 75 years.

Quote:

It's a logical step, which I have not bothered to point out so far, because I thought it would be too obvious for anyone to question.

Think again....

I recommend you try to understand that concept instead of trying to come up with an argument against it because you are frightened of it. You cannot learn unless you stop talking.

Do you understand how money can have real value only if there is a shared belief in that value?

FYI, this is where we were actually up to in the discussion, before you decided to take it back to your comfort zone of the same idiotic dribble you have been sprouting for months.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #294 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 2:36pm Quote: Whereas the Oz dollar's value is based on the Oz nation's productivity You are completely missing the point of the question. It is far more fundamental than that, and goes to the very nature of money. It has nothing to do with exchange rates.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #295 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 2:43pm

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 1:28pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 9:59am:

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 9:18am:

http://www.yabbforum.com/
ANyway, you are confusing value (of a cow, of wheat) with money which is a symbol of value.
Money does not represent a cow or wheat. Money represents value. The cow and the wheat have some value but they are NOT value, they are cow and heat.

No. The cow was used as money. It was a medium of exchange used for trade, labour payment and debts between tribes and clans. Those tribes judged their relative status by how many cows they owned relative to other tribes. They accumulated cows even beyond their immediate need for them all - i.e.cows were money. The fact that they had intrinsic value beyond their symbolic use notwithstanding.

You are retrofitting the cows and bartering into money.

You cannot put 20 cows into your pocket and go travelling. You can put some good money in your pocket or on your card and go anywhere.
[]https://www.rba.gov.au/media-releases/2019/images/20-ngb-full-signature-side.jpg[]

Or you can have some bad money and go nowhere.
[]https://www.rba.gov.au/education/images/explainers/what-is-money-05-zimbabwe-banknote.jpg[]

You can't seem to get your hand off it when it comes to money being anything other than being symbolic only.

Of course you can't use cows as money in modern societies... That has nothing to do with cows once being used as money - no barter, money.

In societies where obvious intrinsic value was a prerequisite for anything being worthy of being used as money, obviously cows beat heavy precious metals that no one deemed to have any real value.

Behold the highest denomination banknote ever issued - the Hungarian 100 Quintillion Pengo note

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #296 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 2:54pm Quote: In societies where obvious intrinsic value was a prerequisite for anything being worthy of being used as money, obviously cows beat heavy precious metals that no one deemed to have any real value. Can you name such a society?
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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 44685 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #297 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 2:57pm thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 2:10pm: You could exchange some cows for other goods and services, in a pre-money economy. The rub. Pre-money.
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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11886 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #298 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 3:01pm freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 2:54pm: Quote: In societies where obvious intrinsic value was a prerequisite for anything being worthy of being used as money, obviously cows beat heavy precious metals that no one deemed to have any real value. Can you name such a society? The Masai and their ancestors,
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Bobby.

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Re: foundations
Reply #299 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 3:06pm

Quote:

Behold the highest denomination banknote ever issued -
the Hungarian 100 Quintillion Pengo note

All caused by money printing yet
Govts all around the world are doing the same thing -
The USA and even Australia -
our Reserve Bank - the RBA printed over A$1 trillion worth
to buy Australian Govt Bonds.

The Yanks have printed over US$33 Trillion and
that is all converted to US Govt. Bonds.

When Govts don't have money their Reserve Banks print it.

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