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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #300 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 3:11pm Any others?
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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 103110 Melbourne Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #301 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 3:14pm freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 3:11pm: Any others? England, EU, Japan, China. I think most countries print money - it depends how much.
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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #302 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 3:21pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 3:01pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 2:54pm:

Quote:

In societies where obvious intrinsic value was a prerequisite for anything being worthy of being used as money, obviously cows beat heavy precious metals that no one deemed to have any real value.

Can you name such a society?

The Masai and their ancestors,

"Used as money" is not money, it is your projection.

Anyway.
Money catches up with the Masai:

Basecamp Foundation partnered with the DyreParken Zoo in Norway, through the Stromme Foundation in Uganda, to establish this Community Managed Microfinance model. It gives Maasai women an opportunity to save their incomes and borrow seed capital to start small businesses to sustain their households, ensure their children have a balanced diet, and ultimately enhance their lifestyles. This microfinance model, which is a success in Uganda, is being implemented for the first time in Kenya, and is already stretching through the Maasai Mara region.

This is a pioneer project that has revived the hopes of many Maasai women, who would previously wait for their husbands to attain heads of cattle and employ their services at no cost.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: foundations
Reply #303 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 3:27pm

Now dividie's a fantasy theorist
From whom we all take the pee
And he has to be a joke
Or serious on the toke
Says nothing that we'd take for free...

He says money's a joke in the modern world,
And he's pushing the cashless idea
Which the RBA claims
To be one of its aims
To control everybody with fear.

Sing us your song, you fantasy man
Sing us your song every time
'Cause if we just get the Abos
A job out there,
Everything works out just fine.....

Oh, sorry - that's for the Tavern.... apologies to Sir William Joel ... Cool

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« Last Edit: Mar 8^th, 2024 at 3:33pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #304 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 3:41pm

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 3:21pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 3:01pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 2:54pm:

Quote:

In societies where obvious intrinsic value was a prerequisite for anything being worthy of being used as money, obviously cows beat heavy precious metals that no one deemed to have any real value.

Can you name such a society?

The Masai and their ancestors,

"Used as money" is not money, it is your projection.

No, it was money.

It was what was used to pay for goods, labour, transactions, negotiated prices...

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #305 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:05pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 3:41pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 3:21pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 3:01pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 2:54pm:

Quote:

In societies where obvious intrinsic value was a prerequisite for anything being worthy of being used as money, obviously cows beat heavy precious metals that no one deemed to have any real value.

Can you name such a society?

The Masai and their ancestors,

"Used as money" is not money, it is your projection.

No, it was money.

It was what was used to pay for goods, labour, transactions, negotiated prices...

Barter, the direct exchange of goods or services - without an intervening medium of exchange or money—either according to established rates of exchange or by bargaining. It is considered the oldest form of commerce.
https://www.britannica.com/money/barter-trade

You are not suggesting, are you, that all goods, labour, services were exchanged first into cows and then the cows were exchanged for other goods, labour etc.

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« Last Edit: Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:38pm by Frank »

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #306 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:09pm

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:05pm:

You are not suggesting, are you, that all goods, labour, services were exchanged first into cows and then the cows were exchanged for other goods, labour etc.

That is exactly how cows were used.

If a clan didn't have any cows, or not enough as a medium of exchange, they had to resort solely to bartering, begging or offering their labour in exchange for food and shelter.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #307 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:27pm Quote: If a clan didn't have any cows, or not enough as a medium of exchange, they had to resort solely to bartering, begging or offering their labour in exchange for food and shelter. What is the distinction you are trying to make here? Why is it bartering if they exchange something else? Were the Maasai unique in this?
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #308 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:47pm

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:27pm:

Quote:

If a clan didn't have any cows, or not enough as a medium of exchange, they had to resort solely to bartering, begging or offering their labour in exchange for food and shelter.

What is the distinction you are trying to make here? Why is it bartering if they exchange something else?

Were the Maasai unique in this?

Gee, let's see...

Cows could be used as a medium of exchange for anything - food, goods, slaves, access to territory...

Woven baskets are fine for bartering, so long as the other party needed baskets, and had a likewise needed commodity in return... otherwise, bad luck for the prospective barterer(s).

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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #309 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:50pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:47pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:27pm:

Quote:

If a clan didn't have any cows, or not enough as a medium of exchange, they had to resort solely to bartering, begging or offering their labour in exchange for food and shelter.

What is the distinction you are trying to make here? Why is it bartering if they exchange something else?

Were the Maasai unique in this?

Gee, let's see...

Cows could be used as a medium of exchange for anything - food, goods, slaves, access to territory...

Woven baskets are fine for bartering, so long as the other party needed baskets, and had a likewise needed commodity in return... otherwise, bad luck for the prospective barterer(s).

So the difference is that everyone needed cows, but not baskets? And that's what makes cows money but not baskets?

Were the Maasai unique in this?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #310 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:51pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:09pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:05pm:

You are not suggesting, are you, that all goods, labour, services were exchanged first into cows and then the cows were exchanged for other goods, labour etc.

That is exactly how cows were used.

If a clan didn't have any cows, or not enough as a medium of exchange, they had to resort solely to bartering, begging or offering their labour in exchange for food and shelter.

So they were bartering things for cows.

The thing about cows, versus money, is that they are not portable and do not have a variety of denominations. Additionally, money being an abstract concept, it has no other function than as a medium of echange into which any tradable value can be readily 'translated'. A cow is not money just because it has value and can be exchanged for other things of roughly similar value?

The entire point of money - and partially the mystery of it - is that it is totally abstract, like the measure of time, yet very well suited for the performance of its function, unlike cows or bulls.

It's no accident that money and time are uncountable - how much money/ time do you have? - and only their measure is countable as dollars, hours, cows.

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« Last Edit: Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:09pm by Frank »

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #311 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:58pm

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:50pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:47pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:27pm:

Quote:

If a clan didn't have any cows, or not enough as a medium of exchange, they had to resort solely to bartering, begging or offering their labour in exchange for food and shelter.

What is the distinction you are trying to make here? Why is it bartering if they exchange something else?

Were the Maasai unique in this?

Gee, let's see...

Cows could be used as a medium of exchange for anything - food, goods, slaves, access to territory...

Woven baskets are fine for bartering, so long as the other party needed baskets, and had a likewise needed commodity in return... otherwise, bad luck for the prospective barterer(s).

So the difference is that everyone needed cows, but not baskets? And that's what makes cows money but not baskets?

Were the Maasai unique in this?

The difference is that cows were money - prized for their immense intrinsic value - in the way shells or precious metals in other societies were prized for their extreme scarcity - and baskets were not.

The practice occurred in agrarian societies throughout Africa and parts of Asia.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #312 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:02pm Quote: The difference is that cows were money So cows were money because cows were money? Does that mean that baskets were not money because they were not money? Quote: prized for their immense intrinsic value Is that relevant to whether they were money? Or are you just making sure we realise how wonderful cows are?
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #313 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:04pm

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:51pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:09pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:05pm:

You are not suggesting, are you, that all goods, labour, services were exchanged first into cows and then the cows were exchanged for other goods, labour etc.

That is exactly how cows were used.

If a clan didn't have any cows, or not enough as a medium of exchange, they had to resort solely to bartering, begging or offering their labour in exchange for food and shelter.

So they were bartering things for cows.

The thing about cows, versus money, is that they are not portable and do not have a variety of denominations. Additionally, money being an abstract concept, it has no other function than as a medium of echange into which any tradable value can be readily 'translated'. A cow is not money j uyst because it has value and can be exchanged for other things of roughly similar value?

The entire point of money - and partially the mystery of it - is that it is totally abstract, like the measure of time, yet very well suited for the performance of its function, unlike cows or bulls.

It's no accident that money and time are uncountable - how much money/ time do you have? - and only their measure is countable as dollars, hours, cows.

The reason gold and silver are valued was because of their lustre and extreme scarcity, and the immense effort that was required to mine them - no mystery at all.

The reason cows were valued is because of their obvious immense intrinsic value.

In the modern age, many question why gold and silver should still be considered an international medium of exchange at all, which is why their traders vehemently and daily insist that they have intrinsic value.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #314 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:06pm Quote: which is why their traders vehemently and daily insist that they have intrinsic value Has anyone else here ever seen them do this?
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