Australian Politics Forum

MeisterEckhart

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11886
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #315 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:09pm

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:02pm:

Quote:

The difference is that cows were money

So cows were money because cows were money? Does that mean that baskets were not money because they were not money?

Quote:

prized for their immense intrinsic value

Is that relevant to whether they were money? Or are you just making sure we realise how wonderful cows are?

You and Frank should get a room.

That which has immense intrinsic value is a candidate for a medium of exchange. The problem is, in a complex world, the medium of exchange must be easily portable and agreed by as many as possible, to have value (even if not intrinsic value).

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #316 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:11pm Can you name an item in every day use by the Maasai which they could purchase with one or more cows?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

MeisterEckhart

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11886
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #317 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:12pm

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:06pm:

Quote:

which is why their traders vehemently and daily insist that they have intrinsic value

Has anyone else here ever seen them do this?

Aww, please... If you've never bought silver or gold or listened to bullion traders either in person or online, try it sometime... Ask a bullion dealer if precious metals (particularly gold, silver and platinum) have intrinsic value - take a chair... you're going to need it.

Back to top

IP Logged

MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11886 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #318 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:14pm freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:11pm: Can you name an item in every day use by the Maasai which they could purchase with one or more cows? If you were wandering through their territory, they could have kidnapped you and sold you as a slave to another tribe for a couple of cows.
Back to top	IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48833
At my desk.

Re: foundations
Reply #319 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:17pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:14pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:11pm:

Can you name an item in every day use by the Maasai which they could purchase with one or more cows?

If you were wandering through their territory, they could have kidnapped you and sold you as a slave to another tribe for a couple of cows.

Could they buy anything other than people with one or more cows?

Why don't you tell us that people were money, seeing as they have an even more immense value?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

MeisterEckhart

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11886
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #320 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:21pm

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:17pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:14pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:11pm:

Can you name an item in every day use by the Maasai which they could purchase with one or more cows?

If you were wandering through their territory, they could have kidnapped you and sold you as a slave to another tribe for a couple of cows.

Could they buy anything other than people with one or more cows?

Why don't you tell us that people were money, seeing as they have an even more immense value?

Anything could have been purchased with cows in societies that valued them and used them as a medium of exchange.

Back to top

IP Logged

Frank

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 44685
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #321 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:22pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:04pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:51pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:09pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:05pm:

You are not suggesting, are you, that all goods, labour, services were exchanged first into cows and then the cows were exchanged for other goods, labour etc.

That is exactly how cows were used.

If a clan didn't have any cows, or not enough as a medium of exchange, they had to resort solely to bartering, begging or offering their labour in exchange for food and shelter.

So they were bartering things for cows.

The thing about cows, versus money, is that they are not portable and do not have a variety of denominations. Additionally, money being an abstract concept, it has no other function than as a medium of echange into which any tradable value can be readily 'translated'. A cow is not money j uyst because it has value and can be exchanged for other things of roughly similar value?

The entire point of money - and partially the mystery of it - is that it is totally abstract, like the measure of time, yet very well suited for the performance of its function, unlike cows or bulls.

It's no accident that money and time are uncountable - how much money/ time do you have? - and only their measure is countable as dollars, hours, cows.

The reason gold and silver are valued was because of their lustre and extreme scarcity, and the immense effort that was required to mine them - no mystery at all.

Well, cows have no lustre, aren't scarce and they multiply without h human effort.
Just on those counts they are obviously nothing like gold.

Anyway, the first question is of value. What is value? And what is the exchangeable subsection of value? Not all value is tradable.
The second question is how to express exchangeable value that is applicable to everything that does have such exchangable value?

Cows do have value but are not value only. They are exchangeable but not only that. You can express some exchangeable value in cows but most you can't.
Money, on the other hand , has no value UNLESS it is exchangeable for things with tradable value. Hyperinflation money brings this into stark light.
There has never been and never will be a hyperinflation of cows.

Money, on the other hand, expresses every

Back to top

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

IP Logged

MeisterEckhart

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11886
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #322 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:27pm

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:22pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:04pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:51pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:09pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 4:05pm:

You are not suggesting, are you, that all goods, labour, services were exchanged first into cows and then the cows were exchanged for other goods, labour etc.

That is exactly how cows were used.

If a clan didn't have any cows, or not enough as a medium of exchange, they had to resort solely to bartering, begging or offering their labour in exchange for food and shelter.

So they were bartering things for cows.

The thing about cows, versus money, is that they are not portable and do not have a variety of denominations. Additionally, money being an abstract concept, it has no other function than as a medium of echange into which any tradable value can be readily 'translated'. A cow is not money j uyst because it has value and can be exchanged for other things of roughly similar value?

The entire point of money - and partially the mystery of it - is that it is totally abstract, like the measure of time, yet very well suited for the performance of its function, unlike cows or bulls.

It's no accident that money and time are uncountable - how much money/ time do you have? - and only their measure is countable as dollars, hours, cows.

The reason gold and silver are valued was because of their lustre and extreme scarcity, and the immense effort that was required to mine them - no mystery at all.

Well, cows have no lustre, aren't scarce and they multiply without h human effort.

Just on those counts they are obviously nothing like gold.

Cows have immense intrinsic value - scarcity and lustre apply to precious metals that do not have obvious intrinsic value.

Back to top

IP Logged

MeisterEckhart

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11886
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #323 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:36pm

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:22pm:

Money, on the other hand , has no value UNLESS it is exchangeable for things with tradable value. Hyperinflation money brings this into stark light.
There has never been and never will be a hyperinflation of cows.

No.

Precious metals have uses other than a nedium of exchange - particularly jewellery. That does not detract from their monetary function.

The pearls of a necklace and the diamonds in a brooch can also have a monetary function.

Hyperinflation occurs when the medium of exchange is no longer sustained by the myth of its intrinsic value. In 1946, Hungarians lost faith in their currency when they discovered that the government was printing money without the backing of gold reserves which had been stolen by the Nazis.

Back to top

IP Logged

Frank

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 44685
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #324 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:41pm

This discussion is brought to you by the words INTRINSIC aka COWS and ABSTRACT, aka MONEY.
Cows vs Money.

Your host is the great dividing deranged master of the echhardt. Watch your hind legs, donkeys, he will repeat his mantra exhaustively and talk them off you, like his cousin, the great parrot. No quarters or reasons will be given. The Masai knew it all and master echo knows the Masai like he knows everything - better than you. Only the great parrot knows more and more assuredly than the master echo.

Back to top

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

IP Logged

MeisterEckhart

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11886
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #325 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:44pm

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:41pm:

This discussion is brought to you by the words INTRINSIC aka COWS and ABSTRACT, aka MONEY.
Cows vs Money.

Your host is the great dividing deranged master of the echhardt. Watch your hind legs, donkeys, he will repeat his mantra exhaustively and talk them off you, like his cousin, the great parrot. No quarters or reasons will be given. The Masai knew it all and master echo knows the Masai like he knows everything - better than you. Only the great parrot knows more and more assuredly than the master echo.

Well, it kept you out of the toilet blocks today... that's gotta be a good thing.

What's that? A thing can only be money if it's used only as money!!

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48833
At my desk.

Re: foundations
Reply #326 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:45pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:21pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:17pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:14pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:11pm:

Can you name an item in every day use by the Maasai which they could purchase with one or more cows?

If you were wandering through their territory, they could have kidnapped you and sold you as a slave to another tribe for a couple of cows.

Could they buy anything other than people with one or more cows?

Why don't you tell us that people were money, seeing as they have an even more immense value?

Anything could have been purchased with cows in societies that valued them and used them as a medium of exchange.

Can you name something in everyday use by the Maasai that could be bought with one or more cows?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Jasin Gold Member Online Posts: 47421 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #327 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:46pm Volunteer work. If you don't get paid, you get laid. No GST included.
Back to top	AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY. IP Logged

MeisterEckhart

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11886
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #328 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:50pm

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:45pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:21pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:17pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:14pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:11pm:

Can you name an item in every day use by the Maasai which they could purchase with one or more cows?

If you were wandering through their territory, they could have kidnapped you and sold you as a slave to another tribe for a couple of cows.

Could they buy anything other than people with one or more cows?

Why don't you tell us that people were money, seeing as they have an even more immense value?

Anything could have been purchased with cows in societies that valued them and used them as a medium of exchange.

Can you name something in everyday use by the Maasai that could be bought with one or more cows?

Remember the other day when you wanted to buy a bag of jelly beans to suck on but the shop owner said you had to spend at least $5 in his cashless shop via eftpos?

You had to choose whether you bought other goods as well or opened an account with the shopkeeper and promised to pay when the value of your purchases reached $5.

Which did you choose?

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48833
At my desk.

Re: foundations
Reply #329 - Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:51pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:50pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:45pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:21pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:17pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:14pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2024 at 5:11pm:

Can you name an item in every day use by the Maasai which they could purchase with one or more cows?

If you were wandering through their territory, they could have kidnapped you and sold you as a slave to another tribe for a couple of cows.

Could they buy anything other than people with one or more cows?

Why don't you tell us that people were money, seeing as they have an even more immense value?

Anything could have been purchased with cows in societies that valued them and used them as a medium of exchange.

Can you name something in everyday use by the Maasai that could be bought with one or more cows?

Remember the other day when you wanted to buy a bag of jelly beans to suck on but the shop owner said you had to spend at least $5 in his cashless shop via eftpos?

You had to choose whether you bought other goods as well or opened an account with the shopkeeper and promised to pay when the value of your purchases reached $5.

Which did you choose?

No. That has never happened to me.

Can you name something in everyday use by the Maasai that could be bought with one or more cows? Go on, just one. It won't hurt.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged