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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12449 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #510 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 9:48am Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 10:30pm: Various things have held value for exchange over the years Including the the Oz and US dollars since their inception. FD thinks it's "shared belief" that has has maintaned the utility - as mediums of exchange - held by those nation's currencies over the decades.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #511 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 9:52am

The Hungarian experience of 1946, proves not only how symbolic a nation's country is, but also that faith in the value it represents is an act of faith rather than necessarily fact.

And an act of faith that the people are willing to partake in, given the alternative.

While Hungary's gold may have been returned physically to Hungary, I'd bet no Hungarian actually believed that it was safely back in their nation's central bank vaults - as if Stalin would have allowed that kind of independence in a satellite country he intended to subsume into the Soviet Union.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #512 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 9:54am

freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 7:10am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 6:05pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 14^th, 2024 at 5:08pm:

Is anyone really arguing that the chosen medium of exchange and amount need not have the confidence of all concerned parties - that it represents the appropriate value in that exchange?

I guess not.

And when there is doubt, there's the American dollar and/or precious metals.

That's what TGD is arguing.

No I'm arguing the utility of the Oz and US dollars as mediums of exchange doesn't depend on the "shared beliefs" of the citizens.

Proof being the citizens (except maybe a few deluded) have always accepted those currencies as a medium of exchange, since their inception.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #513 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 9:57am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 9:52am:

The Hungarian experience of 1946, proves not only how symbolic a nation's country is, but also that faith in the value it represents is an act of faith rather than necessarily fact.

And an act of faith that the people are willing to partake in, given the alternative.

While Hungary's gold may have been returned physically to Hungary, I'd bet no Hungarian actually believed that it was safely back in their nation's central bank vaults - as if Stalin would have allowed that kind of independence in a satellite country he intended to subsume into the Soviet Union.

The utility and value of fiat money have nothing to do with gold.

Nor "shared belief".

"Fiat" = by decree, backed by the resources of the state.

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« Last Edit: Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:04am by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12449 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #514 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 9:58am .
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #515 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:02am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 9:48am:

FD thinks it's "shared belief" that has has maintaned the utility - as mediums of exchange - held by those nation's currencies over the decades.

I think he has a point.

How much gold is actually in Fort Knox. or its modern equivalent? Nobody knows. Why not?

When Venezuela demanded the repatriation of its gold reserves stored in foreign banks, it was almost a vaudeville comedy act in its, partial, recovery, replete with wild public scenes of elation when the first shipments were made. But how much gold was actually repatriated? Who knows.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #516 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:05am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 9:57am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 9:52am:

The Hungarian experience of 1946, proves not only how symbolic a nation's country is, but also that faith in the value it represents is an act of faith rather than necessarily fact.

And an act of faith that the people are willing to partake in, given the alternative.

While Hungary's gold may have been returned physically to Hungary, I'd bet no Hungarian actually believed that it was safely back in their nation's central bank vaults - as if Stalin would have allowed that kind of independence in a satellite country he intended to subsume into the Soviet Union.

The utility and value of fiat money have nothing to do with gold.

Nor "shared belief".

"Fiat" = by decree, backed by the (resources of) the state.

Yes, and the people partake in an act of faith that fiat value is synonymous with 'real' value - not even backed by gold these days.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #517 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:13am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:02am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 9:48am:

FD thinks it's "shared belief" that has has maintaned the utility - as mediums of exchange - held by those nation's currencies over the decades.

I think he has a point.

How much gold is actually in Fort Knox. or its modern equivalent? Nobody knows. Why not?

When Venezuela demanded the repatriation of its gold reserves stored in foreign banks, it was almost a vaudeville comedy act in its, partial, recovery, replete with wild public scenes of elation when the first shipments were made. But how much gold was actually repatriated? Who knows.

See #513.

The subject is "shared belief" in the currency's utility/value.

Gold has nothing to do with it, in the the post gold- standard era.

Do try to keep up.

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« Last Edit: Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:25am by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #518 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:25am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:05am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 9:57am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 9:52am:

The Hungarian experience of 1946, proves not only how symbolic a nation's country is, but also that faith in the value it represents is an act of faith rather than necessarily fact.

And an act of faith that the people are willing to partake in, given the alternative.

While Hungary's gold may have been returned physically to Hungary, I'd bet no Hungarian actually believed that it was safely back in their nation's central bank vaults - as if Stalin would have allowed that kind of independence in a satellite country he intended to subsume into the Soviet Union.

The utility and value of fiat money have nothing to do with gold.

Nor "shared belief".

"Fiat" = by decree, backed by the (resources of) the state.

Yes, and the people partake in an act of faith that fiat value is synonymous with 'real' value

Nonsense. The resources of the state trump ""shared belief", with or without a gold standard.

Quote:

- not even backed by gold these days.

Correct, because there's not enough gold to cover total global transactions these days, which is why Nixon abandoned the gold standard.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 12449 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #519 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:26am .
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #520 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:29am

Gold was once a way to translate a currency's value from fiat to real - hence Chavez's vaudevillian act of repatriating Venezuelan gold, although it was only a noisy deflection from Venezuela's dire economic situation to 'evil' foreign governments 'stealing' Venezuela's wealth.

It didn't work and Venezuela spiralled into hyperinflation anyway.

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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #521 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:35am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:02am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 9:48am:

FD thinks it's "shared belief" that has has maintaned the utility - as mediums of exchange - held by those nation's currencies over the decades.

I think he has a point.

How much gold is actually in Fort Knox. or its modern equivalent? Nobody knows. Why not?

When Venezuela demanded the repatriation of its gold reserves stored in foreign banks, it was almost a vaudeville comedy act in its, partial, recovery, replete with wild public scenes of elation when the first shipments were made. But how much gold was actually repatriated? Who knows.

What do you think his point is?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #522 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:46am

freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:35am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:02am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 9:48am:

FD thinks it's "shared belief" that has has maintaned the utility - as mediums of exchange - held by those nation's currencies over the decades.

I think he has a point.

How much gold is actually in Fort Knox. or its modern equivalent? Nobody knows. Why not?

When Venezuela demanded the repatriation of its gold reserves stored in foreign banks, it was almost a vaudeville comedy act in its, partial, recovery, replete with wild public scenes of elation when the first shipments were made. But how much gold was actually repatriated? Who knows.

What do you think his point is?

I was referring to your having a point.

But, having said that, here's a thing...

If parties didn't like the Australian dollar for whatever reason, for example, would that, in itself, devalue it?

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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #523 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:47am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:46am:

freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:35am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:02am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 9:48am:

FD thinks it's "shared belief" that has has maintaned the utility - as mediums of exchange - held by those nation's currencies over the decades.

I think he has a point.

How much gold is actually in Fort Knox. or its modern equivalent? Nobody knows. Why not?

When Venezuela demanded the repatriation of its gold reserves stored in foreign banks, it was almost a vaudeville comedy act in its, partial, recovery, replete with wild public scenes of elation when the first shipments were made. But how much gold was actually repatriated? Who knows.

What do you think his point is?

I was referring to your having a point.

But, having said that, here's a thing...

If parties didn't like the Australian dollar for whatever reason, for example, would that, in itself, devalue it?

"Not liking it" is meaningless.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #524 - Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:53am

freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:47am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:46am:

freediver wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:35am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 10:02am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 15^th, 2024 at 9:48am:

FD thinks it's "shared belief" that has has maintaned the utility - as mediums of exchange - held by those nation's currencies over the decades.

I think he has a point.

How much gold is actually in Fort Knox. or its modern equivalent? Nobody knows. Why not?

When Venezuela demanded the repatriation of its gold reserves stored in foreign banks, it was almost a vaudeville comedy act in its, partial, recovery, replete with wild public scenes of elation when the first shipments were made. But how much gold was actually repatriated? Who knows.

What do you think his point is?

I was referring to your having a point.

But, having said that, here's a thing...

If parties didn't like the Australian dollar for whatever reason, for example, would that, in itself, devalue it?

"Not liking it" is meaningless.

Well, it's low resolution, that's for sure.

If the Australian economy is buoyant and thriving, what reason would anyone have, in everyday transactions, to prefer not to use Australian currency?

For large international transactions, it's plausible that parties might prefer US dollars or precious metals as the medium of exchange.

When using PayPal, you will sometimes find that the foreign partner prefers, say, Euros over the local foreign currency.

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