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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #585 - Mar 17^th, 2024 at 8:44pm

Democracy did not come fully formed or revealed from a Christian Mount Sinai to Christian Europe, it evolved over hundreds of years, from Magna Carta and beyond.

It had to defeat the aristocracy's right to rule with its divine right of kings.

This did not occur in England until the Stuart line became extinct and the German Hanover line ascended to the throne. Germans who initially did not speak English and knew little of British traditions or governance.

Even after the American Revolution, the fundamental democratic pillar - the right to vote - was not granted to all.

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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #586 - Mar 17^th, 2024 at 9:03pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 17^th, 2024 at 8:44pm:

Democracy did not come fully formed or revealed from a Christian Mount Sinai to Christian Europe, it evolved over hundreds of years, from Magna Carta and beyond.

It had to defeat the aristocracy's right to rule with its divine right of kings.

This did not occur in England until the Stuart line became extinct and the German Hanover line ascended to the throne. Germans who initially did not speak English and knew little of British traditions or governance.

Even after the American Revolution, the fundamental democratic pillar - the right to vote - was not granted to all.

A very pedestrian, trite point ( like all your points). Of course democracy wasn't Pallas Athena, springing fully formed from the godhead.

The thing to note is that democracy could not stem from any other way of thinking or perception of the world - not for Islam, Judaism or Hinduism. It is possible only from a Christian foundation, from the idea of man being created in the image of God.

from which comes the idea that the world - the human world - is co-created by man and god.

This is an explosivly and inexhaustivelly creative idea.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11796 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #587 - Mar 17^th, 2024 at 9:13pm Frank wrote on Mar 17^th, 2024 at 9:03pm: A very pedestrian, trite point ( like all your points). Of course democracy wasn't Pallas Athena, springing fully formed from the godhead. Adatha's out of the attic again, I see, texting from a public toilet.
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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #588 - Mar 17^th, 2024 at 9:47pm

Frank wrote on Mar 17^th, 2024 at 7:47pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2024 at 2:53pm:

The Foundations of Modern Civilisation

Power
Wealth
Liberty

Universal Education
Women’s Rights
Freedom of the Press
Constraint of Monopoly
Economic Rights

Human Rights
Rejection of Slavery
Rejection of Corruption

Democracy
Equality Before the Law

What is the basis of democracy and equality before the law?

Christianity.

Do not forget it. There is no equality before the law without each being created in the image of God.

Nobody but Christians have this fundamental idea - not the Jews, not the Muslims, Hindus, Abos. Universal human rights are based on this perception.

There is NO universal human rights in Islam, Judaism, Hinduism etc. ONLY in Christiaity.

Equality before the law maybe, but definitely not democracy.

Quote:

Democracy did not come fully formed or revealed from a Christian Mount Sinai to Christian Europe, it evolved over hundreds of years, from Magna Carta and beyond.

Greece, Rome and Carthage all had elements of democracy.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11796 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #589 - Mar 17^th, 2024 at 9:53pm freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2024 at 9:47pm: Equality before the law Which is the fundamental pillar of Judaism - extended to Jews - thousands of years before Christianity.
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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #590 - Mar 17^th, 2024 at 10:01pm

The more interesting revolution is not the repeated efforts at establishing democracy, but the ending of slavery, which I see as the first step to equality before the law. Democracy came in fits and starts, but the ending of slavery was all one way, and is only drawing to a close in modern times.

What is peculiar about it is that it was not any kind of revolution. The slaves may have revolted in ancient Rome, but there was never an overturning of slavery. Instead, Christianity spread through Europe, without war or revolution, then over the following centuries slavery gradually died out, though thousands of decisions made separately by thousands of people. Judaism had a lot to do with it to. In particular, the exodus story that is a big part of both Judaism and Christianity would make people identify with the slave rather than the slave owner. It does not call for revolution or the ending of slavery. It merely makes you see the slaves as people.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Bias_2012 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10729 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #591 - Mar 17^th, 2024 at 10:35pm The Libs and Labs consider us to be slaves with all their compulsory sh!t ... and nah, you can't makes excuses for it saying it's necessary ... that would make you as bad as them
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #592 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 4:49am These days people don't even know what slavery means.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #593 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 10:17am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 17^th, 2024 at 2:44pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 17^th, 2024 at 11:23am:

Does Russia have enough gold to outlast the war?

How long will the war last? Do you know?

No; and neither was Nixon prepared to face nations demanding the US back its trade with gold, though he tried evertything to maintain the gold standard, and failed in the end. Ignoramuses - or blind ideologues (see below) like you - ignore, or draw the wrong conclusions from history, of course.

Quote:

Russia is the second largest producer of gold.

So Russia might be have enough gold to win the war? Depends if the US Congress can get its act together.

Quote:

I'd bet Putin has plenty of 'black' gold for secretly paying for what he needs from Kim Jong Il and the CCP to fund the war.

And I'll bet you are a deluded 'natural individual rights' ideologue, even though the evidence says such "rights" - which are the reason for the endless wars and entrenched poverty ruining our world - don't exist in nature.

Foundations? Geez.....

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #594 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 10:25am

Frank wrote on Mar 17^th, 2024 at 9:03pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 17^th, 2024 at 8:44pm:

Democracy did not come fully formed or revealed from a Christian Mount Sinai to Christian Europe, it evolved over hundreds of years, from Magna Carta and beyond.

It had to defeat the aristocracy's right to rule with its divine right of kings.

This did not occur in England until the Stuart line became extinct and the German Hanover line ascended to the throne. Germans who initially did not speak English and knew little of British traditions or governance.

Even after the American Revolution, the fundamental democratic pillar - the right to vote - was not granted to all.

A very pedestrian, trite point ( like all your points). Of course democracy wasn't Pallas Athena, springing fully formed from the godhead.

The thing to note is that democracy could not stem from any other way of thinking or perception of the world - not for Islam, Judaism or Hinduism. It is possible only from a Christian foundation, from the idea of man being created in the image of God.

from which comes the idea that the world - the human world - is co-created by man and god.

This is an explosivly and inexhaustivelly creative idea.

Good to see you critiquing Meister's errors.

But:

The Greeks were not Christian, but they did create the concept of democracy before Chirst (even if on the back of a slave society).

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #595 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 10:28am

Bias_2012 wrote on Mar 17^th, 2024 at 10:35pm:

The Libs and Labs consider us to be slaves with all their compulsory sh!t ... and nah, you can't makes excuses for it saying it's necessary ... that would make you as bad as them

The libs and labs are both deluded by mainstream economic othodoxy re "taxpayer money".

You can't engender shared prosperity if you are crippled by that delusion which is the reason for "government austerity"

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #596 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 10:32am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 10:17am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 17^th, 2024 at 2:44pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 17^th, 2024 at 11:23am:

Does Russia have enough gold to outlast the war?

How long will the war last? Do you know?

No; and neither was Nixon prepared to face nations demanding the US back its trade with gold, though he tried evertything to maintain the gold standard, and failed in the end. Ignoramuses - or blind ideologues (see below) like you - ignore, or draw the wrong conclusions from history, of course.

Then why ask the question?

Why deflect to Nixon?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #597 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 10:34am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 10:17am:

And I'll bet you are a deluded 'natural individual rights' ideologue, even though the evidence says such "rights" - which are the reason for the endless wars and entrenched poverty ruining our world - don't exist in nature.

Law doesn't exist in nature. Should we abolish the rule of law?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #598 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 10:35am

freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 4:49am:

These days people don't even know what slavery means.

In the days of the ancient Greeks, who invented domocracy - it meant people who were "owned" by others and who had to work for their owners without reward (other than food and a place to sleep).

Unfortunately, under the guise of "equality before the law" today, some welfare dependent people are forced to sleep in city streets while being able to only afford food.

Slaves....

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #599 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 10:43am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 17^th, 2024 at 9:53pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2024 at 9:47pm:

Equality before the law

Which is the fundamental pillar of Judaism - extended to Jews - thousands of years before Christianity.

Yes - extending to the Jews, the rest of the world was subject to genocide. Interestingly, Judaism had a concept of a 'debt jubilee'.

google

According to regulations found in the Book of Leviticus, certain indentured servants would be released from servitude, some debts would be forgiven, and everyone was supposed to return to their own property in jubilee years.

A nice aspect of "equality before the law"....

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« Last Edit: Mar 18^th, 2024 at 10:53am by thegreatdivide »

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