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Frank

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Re: foundations
Reply #60 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 10:40am

AusGeoff wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 4:45am:

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2024 at 4:40pm:

Do you think Bob Hawke really said that Bobby?

I couldn't find any verbatim comments made by Hawke himself,
other than this third-party claim by Credlin. who's as legit as a
three-dollar note. Any other sources out there?

Peta Credlin writes:
Quote:

Back in 1994, launching a book of essays, former prime minister Bob
Hawke made the remarkably frank admission that immigration policy
had effectively been a conspiracy by the political establishment against
the Australian public. Hawke agreed with one author’s observation
that most voters wanted immigration reduced and that the parties had
deliberately kept it out of public debate, saying there had indeed been
"an implicit pact between the major parties to implement broad policies
on immigration that they know are not generally endorsed by the electorate"
and that "they have done this by keeping the subject off the political agenda".

Quarterly Essay 6 Beyond Belief: What Future for Labor? by John Button

in the Correspondence section, by Robyn Spencer, after the essay, commenting on a Mungo McCalum essay previously. Page 104, referencing Katherine Betts's The Great Divide: Immigration Politics in Australia, Duffy & Snellgrove, 1999.

Google Books has a the text.

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« Last Edit: Mar 4^th, 2024 at 10:49am by Frank »

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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freediver

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Posts: 48834
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Re: foundations
Reply #61 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 10:44am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 10:37am:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 10:18am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 10:15am:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 10:04am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 9:53am:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 9:45am:

Quote:

So.....Musk's wealth and power which exceeds the GDPs of more than half the world's nations - while many individuals are are forced onto the unemployment scrap heap and others struggle with cost of living issues - is an example of 'Equality Before the Law'?

No. It is an example of wealth.

And that is your argument?

Have another look your own (ideologically distorted) diagram.

'Equality before the Law' is at the base of the pyramid, 'wealth' is at it's tip.

So I ask again: what is the relationship of "Equality before the Law" and "wealth", in your wonderful delusion-based world?

Equality before the law and democracy are the foundations. We did not buy equality before the law with our wealth, but our wealth depends on it to a significant extent.

Your error there: you talk about "our wealth" as if it is something we all enjoy, as an outcome of "equality before the law".

But millions of people are subject to famine, millions more to cost of living crises, while Musk is selling joy-rides in space to millionaires.

"Equality before the Law"?

It is referring to national laws.

Laws based on the delusion of 'natural individual rights'; but since it's impossible for you to understand that delusion, I Robot has explained the error of your understanding of "equality before the law", in simple terms for you.

Do you understand what an intersubjective reality is?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #62 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:27am

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 10:44am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 10:37am:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 10:18am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 10:15am:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 10:04am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 9:53am:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 9:45am:

Quote:

So.....Musk's wealth and power which exceeds the GDPs of more than half the world's nations - while many individuals are are forced onto the unemployment scrap heap and others struggle with cost of living issues - is an example of 'Equality Before the Law'?

No. It is an example of wealth.

And that is your argument?

Have another look your own (ideologically distorted) diagram.

'Equality before the Law' is at the base of the pyramid, 'wealth' is at it's tip.

So I ask again: what is the relationship of "Equality before the Law" and "wealth", in your wonderful delusion-based world?

Equality before the law and democracy are the foundations. We did not buy equality before the law with our wealth, but our wealth depends on it to a significant extent.

Your error there: you talk about "our wealth" as if it is something we all enjoy, as an outcome of "equality before the law".

But millions of people are subject to famine, millions more to cost of living crises, while Musk is selling joy-rides in space to millionaires.

"Equality before the Law"?

It is referring to national laws.

Laws based on the delusion of 'natural individual rights'; but since it's impossible for you to understand that delusion, I Robot has explained the error of your understanding of "equality before the law", in simple terms for you.

Do you understand what an intersubjective reality is?

Oh no....the dreaded "intersubjective reality" delusion rears its head again.

The issue is objective reality, not what certain deluded groups subjectively think is real, eg 'natural individual rights'.

See how your new topic "foundations" is just a front for rehashing all your delusions previously exposed on ozpolitics.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: foundations Reply #63 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:30am Quote: Oh no....the dreaded "intersubjective reality" delusion rears its head again. Why do you dread it? Do you understand the concept?
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Bobby.

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Posts: 103167
Melbourne
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #64 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:38am

Frank wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 10:40am:

AusGeoff wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 4:45am:

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2024 at 4:40pm:

Do you think Bob Hawke really said that Bobby?

I couldn't find any verbatim comments made by Hawke himself,
other than this third-party claim by Credlin. who's as legit as a
three-dollar note. Any other sources out there?

Peta Credlin writes:
Quote:

Back in 1994, launching a book of essays, former prime minister Bob
Hawke made the remarkably frank admission that immigration policy
had effectively been a conspiracy by the political establishment against
the Australian public. Hawke agreed with one author’s observation
that most voters wanted immigration reduced and that the parties had
deliberately kept it out of public debate, saying there had indeed been
"an implicit pact between the major parties to implement broad policies
on immigration that they know are not generally endorsed by the electorate"
and that "they have done this by keeping the subject off the political agenda".

Quarterly Essay 6 Beyond Belief: What Future for Labor? by John Button

in the Correspondence section, by Robyn Spencer, after the essay, commenting on a Mungo McCalum essay previously. Page 104, referencing Katherine Betts's The Great Divide: Immigration Politics in Australia, Duffy & Snellgrove, 1999.

Google Books has a the text.

I got the book here:
https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/Quarterly_Essay_6_Beyond_Belief/SbbiAAAA...

But I can't find the the Correspondence section, by Robyn Spencer?

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 103167 Melbourne Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #65 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:40am freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 8:27am: A referendum requires a question with a binary answer Bobby. It's good that they do not waste time and money on a referendum that everyone already knows the answer to. A question could be - Do you want mass uncontrolled immigration of millions of people? Yes No
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: foundations
Reply #66 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:46am

We all need to understand that whining about how people are treated in some Third World shiessenhole and then trying to translate that into some reflection on HERE and NOW is totally invalid.... if you have the answers to those problems THERE - by all means GO THERE and FIX them - but don't bring them here, which is what you are doing.

dividie, for example, knows how to fix all Aboriginal problems 'out back' - and claims it is a terrible thing that those who choose to live there and choose the lifestyle are doing it 'tough' in some ways - yet will never GO there and FIX them with all his knowledge and understanding and empathy that nobody else has, according to him - how about you do the same with these 'women's rights' to not be treated like cattle etc? Go there and FIX them!!

You may only speak for your own country and culture - not the entire planet and every 'culture' on it... globalism and internationalism are ideologies to which the vast majority everywhere do not subscribe....

What do you propose to DO about the deaths of several trannies, for instance, in some South American turd-hole? What possible relevance does that have to Australia?

Now then - about those Missing Men's Rights - not even worth a mention...... and please explain - what Rights do women and all the other whiners not have HERE?

Where do MEN fit into this pyramid of social advance? As cattle in the fields and just somewhere out there to be rounded up, used and disposed at the whim of the estate ruled by Miz Scarlett?

Foundations indeed - trash the VERY foundation of civilisation, the roots of heaven on earth, then call it progress.

I'd expect far better from you, freediver, than to talk like some sheila or momma's boy. What would the fish think?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Frank

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Posts: 44751
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #67 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:47am

Bobby. wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:38am:

Frank wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 10:40am:

AusGeoff wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 4:45am:

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2024 at 4:40pm:

Do you think Bob Hawke really said that Bobby?

I couldn't find any verbatim comments made by Hawke himself,
other than this third-party claim by Credlin. who's as legit as a
three-dollar note. Any other sources out there?

Peta Credlin writes:
Quote:

Back in 1994, launching a book of essays, former prime minister Bob
Hawke made the remarkably frank admission that immigration policy
had effectively been a conspiracy by the political establishment against
the Australian public. Hawke agreed with one author’s observation
that most voters wanted immigration reduced and that the parties had
deliberately kept it out of public debate, saying there had indeed been
"an implicit pact between the major parties to implement broad policies
on immigration that they know are not generally endorsed by the electorate"
and that "they have done this by keeping the subject off the political agenda".

Quarterly Essay 6 Beyond Belief: What Future for Labor? by John Button

in the Correspondence section, by Robyn Spencer, after the essay, commenting on a Mungo McCalum essay previously. Page 104, referencing Katherine Betts's The Great Divide: Immigration Politics in Australia, Duffy & Snellgrove, 1999.

Google Books has a the text.

I got the book here:
https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/Quarterly_Essay_6_Beyond_Belief/SbbiAAAA...

But I can't find the the Correspondence section, by Robyn Spencer?

p 104

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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freediver

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Posts: 48834
At my desk.

Re: foundations
Reply #68 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:51am

Bobby. wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:40am:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 8:27am:

A referendum requires a question with a binary answer Bobby.

It's good that they do not waste time and money on a referendum that everyone already knows the answer to.

A question could be -

Do you want mass uncontrolled immigration of millions of people?

Yes

No

That would be pointless. A referendum puts a change to the constitution to the public. It is not an opinion poll.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 103167 Melbourne Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #69 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:51am Frank wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:47am: p 104 It only goes to page 92.
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Bobby.

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Re: foundations
Reply #70 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:53am

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:51am:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:40am:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 8:27am:

A referendum requires a question with a binary answer Bobby.

It's good that they do not waste time and money on a referendum that everyone already knows the answer to.

A question could be -

Do you want mass uncontrolled immigration of millions of people?

Yes

No

That would be pointless. A referendum puts a change to the constitution to the public. It is not an opinion poll.

What kind of question would be valid in this instance?

Back to top

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Australian Politics

Posts: 83844
Proud pre-1850's NO Voter
Gender: male

Re: foundations
Reply #71 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:55am

Bobby. wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:38am:

Frank wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 10:40am:

AusGeoff wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 4:45am:

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2024 at 4:40pm:

Do you think Bob Hawke really said that Bobby?

I couldn't find any verbatim comments made by Hawke himself,
other than this third-party claim by Credlin. who's as legit as a
three-dollar note. Any other sources out there?

Peta Credlin writes:
Quote:

Back in 1994, launching a book of essays, former prime minister Bob
Hawke made the remarkably frank admission that immigration policy
had effectively been a conspiracy by the political establishment against
the Australian public. Hawke agreed with one author’s observation
that most voters wanted immigration reduced and that the parties had
deliberately kept it out of public debate, saying there had indeed been
"an implicit pact between the major parties to implement broad policies
on immigration that they know are not generally endorsed by the electorate"
and that "they have done this by keeping the subject off the political agenda".

Quarterly Essay 6 Beyond Belief: What Future for Labor? by John Button

in the Correspondence section, by Robyn Spencer, after the essay, commenting on a Mungo McCalum essay previously. Page 104, referencing Katherine Betts's The Great Divide: Immigration Politics in Australia, Duffy & Snellgrove, 1999.

Google Books has a the text.

I got the book here:
https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/Quarterly_Essay_6_Beyond_Belief/SbbiAAAA...

But I can't find the the Correspondence section, by Robyn Spencer?

Now there was no 2357 flight from Guantanamo Bay?

Damn - he's fixed the flight log..... best we call on Airmen Rodriguez and O'Malley for a bluff in the court to unsettle the Colonel...

History does have a convenient way of disappearing itself. doesn't it? Remember Wee Johnny Howard and his comment on late night TV (shown once and then disappeared) that the Iraqi civilians killed in the early stages of Desert Storm all died in a good cause.... lucky bastards ... through the looking glass again, people......

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: foundations
Reply #72 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 12:23pm

We need the constitution changed so as to prevent governments imposing their silly ideas on us - what do you think this is, Nazi Germany 1933-34? Read up on it... how it all happened and the German Volk scarcely noticed unless they were politically active in the opposite camp .... or even in the same one.....

I refer constantly to Shirer's - 'Rise and Fall of The Third Reich' - written by a... (gasps)... MAN who was there and even in Germany at the time..... there is also a new thing - The Nazis In Power - which has a lot more detail.... you should ALL read those to get a firm handle on what is being done to the West at this time.... but I'll bet you don't ....

You mean Shirer had rights to be there that no woman did? Ummm - WRONG!

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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freediver

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At my desk.

Re: foundations
Reply #73 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 12:26pm

Bobby. wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:53am:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:51am:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 11:40am:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2024 at 8:27am:

A referendum requires a question with a binary answer Bobby.

It's good that they do not waste time and money on a referendum that everyone already knows the answer to.

A question could be -

Do you want mass uncontrolled immigration of millions of people?

Yes

No

That would be pointless. A referendum puts a change to the constitution to the public. It is not an opinion poll.

What kind of question would be valid in this instance?

None. Government policy does not go in the constitution.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Bobby.

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Re: foundations
Reply #74 - Mar 4^th, 2024 at 12:26pm

Immigration has finally been mentioned:

The shadow immigration minister Dan Tehan was asked on the ABC insiders show
about immigration numbers last night

You need to sign up to ABC iview - only takes a minute.
Jump to 28:38
see video:
https://iview.abc.net.au/show/insiders/series/0/video/NC2405C005S00

He will announce the policy in the lead up to the next election.

Quote:

Dan Tehan - Shadow Immigration Minister (3/3/2024)
Duration: 59 minutes 38 seconds59m

David Speers joins Niki Savva, Paul Sakkal and Patricia Karvelas to discuss the Dunkley By-Election, immigration and border protection, ASIO boss says a former politician 'sold out' Australia, the gender pay gap plus housing.

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