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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #615 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:31am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:14am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:12am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 10:53am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 10:51am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 10:34am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 10:17am:

And I'll bet you are a deluded 'natural individual rights' ideologue, even though the evidence says such "rights" - which are the reason for the endless wars and entrenched poverty ruining our world - don't exist in nature.

Law doesn't exist in nature. Should we abolish the rule of law?

No, we need rule of law to adjudicate between nature's naturally competitive, territorial, and self-interested individuals, to avoid the endless wars and entrenched poverty ruining our world.

"All men must submit to rule of law, for all to be free": Cicero.

So law does not exist in nature, then. And yet...

So we must create it, for "all men to be free" from nature's slaugterhouse.

But your "equality before the law" - based on your 'natural individuals rights' delusion, results in law which cannot engender shared prosperity - the goal of law; by definition, you are promoting individual success regardless of the egregious effects of competitive instincts.

Does freedom exist in nature?

Of course: the freedom of the 'might is right' slaughter-house.

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freediver

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Re: foundations
Reply #616 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:34am

People are naturally free. It takes a reasonably advanced and stable civilisation to support slavery. Otherwise the slaves just run away.

If you look at the Americas today, the better functioning societies are the ones who were more free at the time of European arrival because they were closer to a natural hunter gatherer society. Less corrupt, better functioning democracies and better human rights.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #617 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:36am

freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:22am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 10:35am:

freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 4:49am:

These days people don't even know what slavery means.

In the days of the ancient Greeks, who invented domocracy - it meant people who were "owned" by others and who had to work for their owners without reward (other than food and a place to sleep).

Unfortunately, under the guise of "equality before the law" today, some welfare dependent people are forced to sleep in city streets while being able to only afford food.

Slaves....

Thanks. That is a good example.

Luck: if a slave in Athens had an empathetic owner, he might have had a better life than the unfortunates we see sleeping in city streets today.

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11227 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #618 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:38am Quote: Of course: the freedom of the 'might is right' slaughter-house. So a warthog is free from 'might is right' as exercised by a lion, then?
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: foundations
Reply #619 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:39am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:29am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:01am:

The foundation of democracy that a government will accept the will of the people....

expressed by mere majority vote, regardless of the knowledge (or lack of) of the individual voters?

..hmm...good results not guaranteed, look around you.

Whereas individuals attracted to the concept of community well-being, as well as the success of individuals, might engender good results, depending on the quality of their knowledge.

So you expect that all will be equally informed and hold much the same views? That those with the opportunity to kick back and consider things all day should have a higher vote value? that we must perforce then have various grades of voter and vote value?

One educated voter has the equivalent of two votes or more depending on qualifications?

That's not how true democracy works... Ein Herr, Ein Vote, Ein Volk!!

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #620 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:41am

freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:31am:

The only thing more dangerous than a Nazi trying to exterminate you is a communist trying to feed you.

FD confusing Stalin's communism, with rule of law engendering community wellbeing.

FD providing an excellent example of the crippled reasoning which follows his delusional ideology; which is why he is incapable of addressing the argument.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: foundations
Reply #621 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:44am

freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:34am:

People are naturally free. It takes a reasonably advanced and stable civilisation to support slavery. Otherwise the slaves just run away.

If you look at the Americas today, the better functioning societies are the ones who were more free at the time of European arrival because they were closer to a natural hunter gatherer society. Less corrupt, better functioning democracies and better human rights.

Yeah - and the enslavement of the majority to fill the demands of the very few, with closures of Falls and Mt Warnings etc, are perfectly within that reasoning. Now get out there and pick that cotton to support the whingers who demand these things from you - your New Overlords... get your job going and pay your taxes so they can just take what they want from you...

Sounds mightily like slavery to me... the Old Southern Plantation Reversed .... Whartey does all the work... Blackey takes all the best bits... now eat your pork belly, and if you are good, you might get some melon on Sunday and maybe a slice of the pussy in the women's shed...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 82811 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #622 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:46am MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:38am: Quote: Of course: the freedom of the 'might is right' slaughter-house. So a warthog is free from 'might is right' as exercised by a lion, then? So a populace is free from the might is right exercised by a government operating by decree and not the will of the people, then?
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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11227 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #623 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:51am Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:39am: That's not how true democracy works... Ein Herr, Ein Vote, Ein Volk!! That'd be: Ein Mann, eine Stimme, ein Volk
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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #624 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:51am

freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:34am:

People are naturally free.

...in nature's "might is right" slaughterhouse....

Quote:

It takes a reasonably advanced and stable civilisation to support slavery. Otherwise the slaves just run away.

Nothing to do with your delusional proposition "people are naturally free"....as if the concept "naturally free" is necessarily good.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: foundations
Reply #625 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:51am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:46am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:38am:

Quote:

Of course: the freedom of the 'might is right' slaughter-house.

So a warthog is free from 'might is right' as exercised by a lion, then?

So a populace is free from the might is right exercised by a government operating by decree and not the will of the people, then?

Is the warthog free from the lion's might?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #626 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:59am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:39am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:29am:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:01am:

The foundation of democracy that a government will accept the will of the people....

expressed by mere majority vote, regardless of the knowledge (or lack of) of the individual voters?

..hmm...good results not guaranteed, look around you.

Whereas individuals attracted to the concept of community well-being, as well as the success of individuals, might engender good results, depending on the quality of their knowledge.

So you expect that all will be equally informed and hold much the same views?

No - and that is the problem with democracy; and though must would like to see shared prosperity, we argue about how to get there.... based on varying degrees of self interest and ignorance.

Quote:

That those with the opportunity to kick back and consider things all day should have a higher vote value? that we must perforce then have various grades of voter and vote value?

One educated voter has the equivalent of two votes or more depending on qualifications?

That's not how true democracy works... Ein Herr, Ein Vote, Ein Volk!!

Indeed... but "democracy is the worst form of government".....

We can and must do better.

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11227 Gender:	Re: foundations Reply #627 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 12:01pm thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:59am: We can and must do better. How do you know we can do better?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #628 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 12:10pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:38am:

Quote:

Of course: the freedom of the 'might is right' slaughter-house.

So a warthog is free from 'might is right' as exercised by a lion, then?

??

Obviously not: the warthog is free UNTIL it is eaten by the lion.

Obviously a warthog might remain free for its entire life if it is lucky enough to avoid lions.

But humans cannot avoid interacting with other humans due to the complexity of human desires - and range of instinctive and non-instinctive behaviours (the latter not available to warthogs) , in nature's "might is right" slaughter-house, take it from Moses.

Try again.

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« Last Edit: Mar 18^th, 2024 at 12:30pm by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: foundations
Reply #629 - Mar 18^th, 2024 at 12:18pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:46am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 18^th, 2024 at 11:38am:

Quote:

Of course: the freedom of the 'might is right' slaughter-house.

So a warthog is free from 'might is right' as exercised by a lion, then?

So a populace is free from the might is right exercised by a government operating by decree and not the will of the people, then?

1. Depends on the quality of the decree eg a decree of shared propsperity.....to attain real freedom and security, despite nature's slaughter-house.

2. The 'will of the people' is an abstraction; each individual has his own will.

But we can see how FD's and Meister's confusion - the resukt of ideological blindness - are leading them astray...

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